Zulip Chat Archive

Stream: maths

Topic: Moreira-2001 (generalization of Sard's theorem)


Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 01 2024 at 08:43):

I'm reading (and trying to formalize) Moreira's version of Sard's theorem, and I can't understand (at least) 1 step. In the proof of Theorem 2.1, page 152, case k1k \ge 1, when dealing with A={xAg ⁣:UCkR,gA0,vRnp×{0},dg(x)v0}A^*=\{x \in A \mid \exists g \colon U \xrightarrow{C^k} \mathbb R, g|_A \equiv 0, \exists v \in \mathbb R^{n - p}\times \{0\}, dg(x) \cdot v \ne 0\}, he uses the implicit function theorem to find a CkC^k smooth map ψ ⁣:B×VCkU\psi\colon B\times V \xrightarrow{C^k} U, BRnp1B \subset \mathbb R^{n - p - 1} (probably, with ψ(x,y)=(ψ~(x,y),y)\psi (x, y) = (\tilde\psi(x, y), y)) such that its image covers a nhd of xx in AA, then calls the inductive hypothesis. However, ψ\psi is a CkC^k map, so there is no guarantee that fψf \circ \psi will be a Ck+(α)C^{k + (\alpha)} smooth.

Is there a gap here, or am I missing something trivial?

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 01 2024 at 10:33):

Don't you just need to define A={xAg ⁣:UCk+(α)R,gA0,vRnp×{0},dg(x)v0}A^*=\{x \in A \mid \exists g \colon U \xrightarrow{C^{k+(\alpha)}} \mathbb R, g|_A \equiv 0, \exists v \in \mathbb R^{n - p}\times \{0\}, dg(x) \cdot v \ne 0\} to fix the argument?

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 01 2024 at 10:36):

(It means you would need an implicit function theorem in Ck+(α)C^{k+(\alpha)}, but this should probably hold without difficulty).

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 01 2024 at 15:49):

By the way, I don't know if you've noticed that several lemmas of the paper are already in mathlib, as I've needed them for the proof of the change of variables formula. For instance, Theorem 3.3 is docs#MeasureTheory.addHaar_image_eq_zero_of_det_fderivWithin_eq_zero (well, Theorem 3.3 is just a little bit weaker than our result in mathlib, in fact :-), and the lemmas used in the proof in mathlib correspond more or less to what he uses in the paper.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 01 2024 at 16:13):

Thanks! I should really learn not to post such questions after midnight. About Thm 3.3, I've noticed this, thanks!

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 04 2024 at 04:45):

@Sébastien Gouëzel Do you know what's the right generalization of Moreira's theorem to ContDiffOn (+some Holder condition) on a not necessarily open set?

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 04 2024 at 04:50):

Probably, assuming that the outer set U is UniqueDiffOn and using iteratedFDerivWithin everywhere will work (not 100% sure about the implicit function theorem in this case - can it lead to a non-UniqueDiffOn domain? - will think about it tomorrow after work)

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 04 2024 at 04:51):

But I see that the lemma you've linked above has even weaker assumptions.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 04 2024 at 05:01):

Also, some steps rely on (local star?) convexity of U. Not sure if we can easily avoid it, since it's used with something like docs#domain_mvt

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 04 2024 at 06:24):

Instead of UniqueDiffOn, you could use an assumption like HasFTaylorSeriesUpToOn (and local Hölder conditions on the given k-th derivative), just like the above lemma uses HasFDerivWithinAt. But since you also need controls given by Taylor inequalities, local convexity seems necessary. So my guess it that "any point in U has a convex neighborhood with nonempty interior within U" is probably a good condition -- the nonempty interior implies unique differentiability, so no need to assume it separately. And since the proof is local, you might as well assume from the start that U is convex with nonempty interior (which would be enough for the application to manifolds with boundary or corners, for instance).

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 04 2024 at 06:59):

Thanks!

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 17:52):

I have 2 new questions:

  • is there a name for Ck+(α)C^{k + (\alpha)} as it is defined in the paper (fCk(U)f\in C^k(U) with Dkf(x)Dkf(a)=O(xaα)D^kf(x) - D^kf(a) = O\left(\|x - a\|^\alpha\right) as xax \to a for all aKa \in K), or should I use something like ContDiffMoreiraHolderOn?
  • is there a version of the inverse function theorem for a function defined on a convex set with nonempty interior, instead of a function defined in a nhd?

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 17:53):

The second is needed to prove the main theorem for functions that are Ck+αC^{k+α} on a convex set.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 17:55):

An alternative way to move it to manifolds is to introduce a typeclass saying that the range of a model is an intersection of finitely many half-spaces (or a union of finitely many convex intrinsically open sets - both work for this case).

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 21 2024 at 17:58):

Yury G. Kudryashov said:

  • is there a name for Ck+(α)C^{k + (\alpha)} as it is defined in the paper (fCk(U)f\in C^k(U) with Dkf(x)Dkf(a)=O(xaα)D^kf(x) - D^kf(a) = O\left(\|x - a\|^\alpha\right) as xax \to a for all aKa \in K), or should I use something like ContDiffMoreiraHolderOn?

Not as far as I know, so your suggestion seems fine.

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 21 2024 at 18:00):

Yury G. Kudryashov said:

  • is there a version of the inverse function theorem for a function defined on a convex set with nonempty interior, instead of a function defined in a nhd?

That depends on the precise version you want, but typically the answer is no. For instance, in the plane, consider a function defined on {x0}\{x \ge 0\} that skews things a little bit to the right (like (x,y)(x+y2,y)(x, y) \mapsto (x + y^2, y)). Then it maps the half-plane to itself, with a bijective differential at zero (the identity), but it is not locally surjective.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 18:01):

Then I'm going to aim for one of the typeclasses on the model I mentioned above.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 18:02):

Yet another option is to prove Whitney's extension theorem, but this is a separate project.

Igor Khavkine (Dec 21 2024 at 20:45):

Yury G. Kudryashov said:

  • is there a name for Ck+(α)C^{k + (\alpha)} as it is defined in the paper (fCk(U)f\in C^k(U) with Dkf(x)Dkf(a)=O(xaα)D^kf(x) - D^kf(a) = O\left(\|x - a\|^\alpha\right) as xax \to a for all aKa \in K), or should I use something like ContDiffMoreiraHolderOn?

Is this not just the definition of a function belonging to a Hölder space? I think I've seen this property referred to as "Hölder regular" or "Hölder differentiable". So even ContDiffHolderOn sounds alright.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 23:34):

No, the Holder condition is required only for aKUa \in K \subset U, with constant and nhd depending on aa.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 21 2024 at 23:35):

I don't know if we'll ever need this difference in conditions, but I want to formalize the paper without losing generality.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Jan 02 2025 at 17:52):

If someone else is interested in collaborating on formalization of the Moreira/Sard theorem, then please contact me. I have a half-done blueprint that covers most (all?) of section 2, nothing from section 3 yet.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 16 2025 at 15:06):

https://github.com/urkud/SardMoreira/blob/main/SardMoreira/MainTheorem.lean now contains

theorem hausdorffMeasure_sardMoreiraBound_image_null_of_finrank_le
    [MeasurableSpace F] [BorelSpace F]
    (hp_dom : p < dim E) (hk : k  0) {f : E  F} {s U : Set E}
    (hf : ContDiffMoreiraHolderOn k α f s U)
    (hs :  x  s, dim (LinearMap.range <| fderiv  f x)  p) :
    μH[sardMoreiraBound (dim E) k α p] (f '' s) = 0 := by

proved without sorrys.

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 16 2025 at 15:10):

(I just hope that sardMoreiraBound is the right bound :-)

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 16 2025 at 15:30):

It's defined in the same file,

noncomputable def sardMoreiraBound (n k : ) (α : I) (p : ) : 0 :=
  p + (n - p) / (k + α, α.2.1)

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 16 2025 at 15:32):

Last time I checked, it was the best available estimate, but it's possible I've missed some recent paper.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 17 2025 at 07:11):

I've dumped some thoughts on upstreaming to https://github.com/urkud/SardMoreira/blob/8bd10dfe9de4739c7c947044992900ecb4edd1e7/README.md
It is not on main, because I don't want to cancel a CI run.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 17 2025 at 07:12):

If you have better ideas on how to organize the process, I'm open to suggestions.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 20 2025 at 19:08):

@Sébastien Gouëzel I've just sent Moreira an e-mail asking if he knows a nice way to apply his theorem to manifolds with boundaries.

Alfredo Moreira-Rosa (Dec 20 2025 at 19:52):

Weird feeling seeing my name on a thread. But that's not abour me :smile:

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 20 2025 at 20:03):

I think Whitney's extension is probably the way to go. I might have a try at it.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 20 2025 at 20:37):

Do you know (a) what's the current best result about Whitney's extension; (b) what's the right way to formulate the corresponding differentiability notion with continuous multilinear forms?

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 20 2025 at 20:50):

If you don't have strong preferences, I would like to try it myself first.

Yury G. Kudryashov (Dec 20 2025 at 20:52):

I think that for Whitney differentiability, we should use formal series in the sense we use them for analytic functions, not formal Taylor series, then say that they satisfy the equalities we have for them in the analytic case, but with finite sums and +O(_).

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 20 2025 at 21:17):

Yes, I agree with all your comments. Whitney's paper is nice and the results there are pretty comprehensive, I'm not sure there's room for improvement. Wikipedia says that this is also explained in Hörmander, this is probably a good reference. For finer result, there is Fefferman's finitary version (https://annals.math.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/annals-v161-n1-p10.pdf) but I don't think they're worth pursuing for now.

Sébastien Gouëzel (Dec 20 2025 at 21:18):

And if you're willing to try it, I'm happy to let you!


Last updated: Dec 20 2025 at 21:32 UTC