## Stream: general

### Topic: conv example

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:43):

I was trying to write an example to illustrate the power of conv, by finding an example where the entire goal was difficult to work with because it contained implicit proofs. I realised that there were two things I didn't understand properly. Here's some code.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:43):

@[elab_simple] def subtypeadd {m : ℕ} {n : ℕ} (A : fin m) (B : fin n) : fin (m+n) :=

definition phi {m n : ℕ} : fin (m + n) → fin (n + m) := λ ⟨i,Hi⟩, ⟨i,add_comm m n ▸ Hi⟩

example {m n : ℕ} (A : fin m) (B : fin n) : phi (subtypeadd A B) = subtypeadd B A :=
begin
have H : A.val + B.val = B.val + A.val := add_comm _ _,
show phi ⟨A.val + B.val, _⟩ = ⟨B.val + A.val, _⟩,
rw H -- fails
end


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:44):

I wanted to make the example hard for one reason, but it somehow turned out to be hard for another reason :-/

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:45):

My first question is why does the show command succeed? I assumed that what show X did was that it first checked that X made sense, and then checked that it was defeq to the goal.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:45):

But I thought I had explicitly rigged it here so that X wouldn't be able to be elaborated, because of the missing proofs.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:46):

My second question is why does rw fail. I have heard rumours that rw will not work inside a lambda (although I don't really understand why -- why is this?) but this is not a lambda and I think the reason for failure is something else.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:47):

The error message is

rewrite tactic failed, motive is not type correct
nested exception message:
check failed, application type mismatch (use 'set_option trace.check true' for additional details)
state:
m n : ℕ,
A : fin m,
B : fin n,
H : A.val + B.val = B.val + A.val
⊢ phi ⟨A.val + B.val, _⟩ = ⟨B.val + A.val, _⟩


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:47):

and if I set_option trace.check true then I get an exciting helpful extra hint:

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:47):

[check] application type mismatch at
⟨_a, _⟩
argument type
A.val + B.val < m + n
expected type
_a < m + n


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:48):

which makes no sense to me...oh! Is it rewriting too many A.val + B.val's?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:48):

I am still a bit bewildered about why this is a type mismatch I guess.

(deleted)

(deleted)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 11:52):

For the first question I guess an underlying question is "which option do you switch on so you can see how Lean is filling in _s?"

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 12:32):

My first question is why does the show command succeed? I assumed that what show X did was that it first checked that X made sense, and then checked that it was defeq to the goal.

I was going to mention this before with your X = Y into X' = Y problem - you could have just written show X' = _. The reason this works is because the checking is done in a weak mode that tolerates metavariable generation, and the second defeq step is not just checking defeq, it is unifying with the target. This means that the first stage will create metavariables and the second stage will unfold stuff as needed to figure out the metavariables. If it can't completely solve the metavariables, you will get new goals instead of an error.

example : tt = tt :=
begin
show (λ x, tt) _ = tt,
-- ⊢ (λ (x : ?m_1), tt) ?m_2 = tt
end

example : tt = tt :=
begin
change (λ x, tt) _ = tt,
-- ⊢ (λ (x : ?m_1), tt) ?m_2 = tt
-- ⊢ Sort ?
-- ⊢ ?m_1
end


As you can see, show differs slightly in that it doesn't change the number of goals while change will add all those unsolved metavariables as new goals, just like refine would.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 12:35):

By the way, goals that look like your phi ⟨A.val + B.val, _⟩ = ⟨B.val + A.val, _⟩ often don't work (they fail in the first stage of parsing), because the anonymous constructor can't be solved outright. In this case it works because phi is sufficient to deduce that both constructors are fin.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 12:48):

My second question is why does rw fail. I have heard rumours that rw will not work inside a lambda (although I don't really understand why -- why is this?) but this is not a lambda and I think the reason for failure is something else.

rw is very sensitive to dependencies. (Or more accurately, it is sufficiently insensitive to dependencies that it will generally fail in their presence.) Both rw and generalize are built on the same basic underlying internal tactic kabstract, which is supposed to take a term P[T] containing a subterm T, and replace it with a variable x. This is needed to construct the motive of the eq.rec application that goes in the proof term when using rw, and it's what you see directly if you use generalize.

The strategy is very simple: look through the term for any subterms that match T (up to some very light unfolding), and replace them with x. It should be obvious that this can get you into trouble when you have dependencies. For example, if two_pos : 0 < 2 then <2, two_pos> is a well typed element of fin 2, but if you simply replace 2 with x you get <x, two_pos> which is not in either fin x or fin 2, it's just malformed. It is actually really difficult to do this correctly in general; in this case you would probably want to generalize the proof of two_pos first so that it will "ride the wave" of 2 -> x renaming rather than being stuck talking about the fixed number 2.

As it pertains to your example, the error message is fairly clear, although it would be more obvious with set_option pp.proofs true. The left argument to the fin constructor has been generalized from A.val + B.val to _a, but the right argument, the proof, is still a proof of A.val + B.val < m + n (namely add_lt_add A.is_lt B.is_lt, what you ended up with after the unfolding), and this is not a correct proof of _a < m + n.

The other major rewrite engine in lean is simp, which does not use kabstract. It operates by using congruence lemmas to recurse into subterms, and this strategy makes it much more reliably type-correct when it comes to rewriting under dependencies. If you try to use simp to rewrite here, it will work, and the proof argument will change to a cast of some sort to accommodate the new type.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 12:48):

Is it possible for me to watch all this unification taking place explicitly? i.e. some set_option?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 12:51):

[that was about the show / change stuff]

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 12:52):

I think set_option trace.type_context.is_def_eq true is what you want

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 12:52):

Earlier on I realised that I didn't really know what rw did, so I've just spent 20 minutes doing edge cases and now I can understand the rw issue. I found that rw doesn't commute with eq.symm in general :-)

#### Sebastian Ullrich (Mar 13 2018 at 12:52):

Plus ...is_def_eq_detail, probably

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 12:54):

example (a b: ℕ) : b + a = b + a + a + b := begin
rw add_comm, -- a + b = a + b + a + b
end


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 12:57):

Are the set_option options documented anywhere?

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:06):

#help options seems to do the trick. (I had to search the code to find that gem. #help is such a rarely used command for me, I'm not even really sure what's there...)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:39):

I am not even sure if I knew #help existed. I thought the help command in Lean was #print

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:40):

it certainly does seem to be a large overlap of duties

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:40):

I can use conv to rewrite A.val + B.val in that earlier example.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:40):

@[elab_simple] def subtypeadd {m : ℕ} {n : ℕ} (A : fin m) (B : fin n) : fin (m+n) :=

definition phi {m n : ℕ} : fin (m + n) → fin (n + m) := λ ⟨i,Hi⟩, ⟨i,add_comm m n ▸ Hi⟩

example {m n : ℕ} (A : fin m) (B : fin n) : phi (subtypeadd A B) = subtypeadd B A :=
begin
have H : A.val + B.val = B.val + A.val := add_comm _ _,
show phi ⟨A.val + B.val, _⟩ = ⟨B.val + A.val, _⟩,
conv
begin
congr,
congr,
congr,
rw H,
end, -- is the term on the left OK??
end


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:41):

conv is doing all sorts of funny things here

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:41):

It seems to forget some terms

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:41):

and I managed to do a rewrite which earlier on was impossible for a good reason

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:42):

or was it impossible for a bad reason?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:44):

Oh maybe conv doesn't care about the terms it forgets.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:44):

I would be in support of moving all "auxiliary" #print stuff to #help; it is a little confusing to have namespace overlapping between #print options (which prints lean cmdline options), #print option (which prints the option type) and #print pp.all (which prints info on the pp.all option)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:44):

Does conv not bother with subsingletons?

I lost a proof

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:46):

I see. So fin is a structure so I can build things of type fin n and they will be of the form <value,proof that this value is less than n>

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:47):

but there's nothing stopping me from deviously changing the value without changing the proof

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:47):

By the way, if you are actually interested in this theorem, a short proof is fin.eq_of_veq (add_comm _ _)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:49):

I don't need the theorem, I was experimenting with trying to build goals which the prettyprinter wouldn't let me use show with ("show <what the pretty printer says the goal is>" failing)

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:49):

conv uses congrence lemmas, like simp, to traverse the term, certainly if you are using the congr tactic

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:49):

so it will succeed for the same reason that simp does

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:49):

conv is really useful for a learner like me.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:50):

It enables to you really zoom in to parts of complicated things which beginners have trouble manipulating

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:50):

You should turn on pp.proofs while working with this

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:50):

oh that's a cool option

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:51):

lol I remember the days when it was the only option. It's like 80% a good idea to hide proofs

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:51):

is there a command which just changes the state of every option that is available?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:51):

then I could easily see all the other things I'm missing

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:51):

lol that would be bedlam

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:52):

Imagine how much I'd learn

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:52):

If you care about printing, look at completions for set_option pp.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:53):

I remember getting really confused early on because of those _s in goals which I'd completely forgotten what they stood for

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:53):

It would be even better if it said what they were a proof of

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:53):

That was proposed; but it would make things even harder for the copy-pasters

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:54):

why not make it an option?

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:54):

I don't want to have to edit all those types out

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:54):

to make it compile

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:54):

Oh wooah if I set proofs on, then does "show (goal)" always succeed?

no, silly

:-)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 13:55):

does that solve the halting problem or something?

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:55):

there are a thousand and one edge cases that cause bad printing

Oh OK.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 13:55):

even pp.all sometimes fails

o_O

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 14:01):

Here's an example:

theorem T : nat.zero = nat.zero :=
by have f := (λ {x}, eq.refl x); exact f

set_option pp.all true
#print T
theorem T' : @eq.{1} nat nat.zero nat.zero :=
@(λ {x : nat}, @eq.refl.{1} nat x) nat.zero --parse error


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:03):

Oh maybe we're talking at cross purposes.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:03):

theorem T' : @eq.{1} nat nat.zero nat.zero :=
begin
show @eq.{1} nat nat.zero nat.zero -- succeeds
end


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:04):

I was wondering if one could be in tactic mode in a situation where the goal is represented by some string S, and then show S fails

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:07):

I am pretty sure I've done that before, but I am less sure about having done it with pp.all true

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 13 2018 at 14:16):

It's easiest to demonstrate by using #print to view proof terms, but this affects all printing, and you can make it work with target printing as well by a similar mechanism.

--set_option pp.all true
theorem T : nat.le nat.zero (by have f := (λ {x:ℕ}, 0); exact @f nat.zero) :=
begin
-- ⊢ nat.le 0 (λ {x : ℕ}, 0)
change nat.le 0 (λ {x : ℕ}, 0), --fail
change nat.le nat.zero (@(λ {x : nat}, @has_zero.zero.{0} nat nat.has_zero) nat.zero) -- parse error
end


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:26):

Are these bugs in the prettyprinter? Or just interesting features?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:27):

Or should @(lam {x},...) actually work?

#### Sebastian Ullrich (Mar 13 2018 at 14:29):

It's the pretty printer wishing for a feature the parser hasn't implemented yet

#### Sebastian Ullrich (Mar 13 2018 at 14:30):

Slightly passive-agressive behavior

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:46):

I see. The pretty printer is somehow the anti-parser isn't it.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 14:47):

in fact it's a one-sided inverse, in a perfect world.

See #1900

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 16:24):

example (a b c N : ℕ) (H1 : a = b) (H2 : a < N) (H3 : b < N) :
(⟨a,H2⟩:fin N) = ⟨b,H3⟩ :=
begin
-- rw H1 fails
conv begin
to_lhs,congr, -- goal now | a
rw H1, -- succeeds
end,
end


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 13 2018 at 16:27):

The first rw fails and my understanding is that it fails because it gives rise to a term which is malformed (copying from Mario's comments above). However it seems to be only as malformed as the term I successfully construct using the conv trick.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 21:41):

I am still none the wiser about this. One conclusion which I've not yet ruled out is simply that whoever wrote rw could have done better, and made that first rw H1 above succeed, because there is nothing in type theory stopping it from succeeding, as we see from the conv approach. Is the reason that rw H1 fails simply that the rw code just doesn't cover this use case?

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 21:45):

I think you are missing that the conv version isn't using just rw, it's using rw + congr, and it is applying congr in the place where dependency matters. Once the goal is | a, there is no longer a dependency to worry about, and rw has no problems.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:05):

But there is nothing stopping someone from beefing up rw so that it works without using conv? It's just some tactic, right?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:10):

Initially when I heard that rw couldn't rewrite in certain circumstances I thought that this was because of some theoretical type theory issue which was beyond me, but now I am more inclined to believe that it's just beyond rw.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:10):

This typechecks:

example (a b c N : ℕ) (H1 : a = b) (H2 : a < N) (H3 : b < N) :
(⟨a,H2⟩:fin N) = ⟨b,H3⟩ := sorry


#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:11):

but if I replace sorry with eq.subst H1 _ then all of a sudden I get a type mismatch in the statement (not the proof) of the example.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:11):

Yes and no. rw does exactly what we want it to, which is to produce an eq.rec term with a well chosen motive. congr applies an appropriate congruence lemma. There are theoretical limitations on what you can prove using eq.rec, and this is why one wouldn't want to change rw for this

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:12):

I opened an issue on dependent rw a while ago, I think it was closed by "use simp instead"

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:13):

I now know from experience that this is not a satisfactory response

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:13):

The reason I got interested in this use of conv was that I had a situation where simp simplified too much

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:14):

so I had to be super-accurate with my rw

conv saved me

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:14):

I mean the simp engine, not necessarily simp on its own

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:14):

How do you use the simp engine??

#### Simon Hudon (Mar 14 2018 at 22:14):

Did it simplify too much even when you called simp only [your rules here]?

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:14):

You know that simp has a bazillion options, right?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:15):

Oh that's a good point Simon, I didn't try this

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:15):

Remember when you discovered that unfold is really simp?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:15):

Are those bazillion options documented? If not, then no I don't know and I don't know how to find out.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:15):

other than random looking through changelogs and source code

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:15):

which I find about as pleasant as looking through trash cans

#### Simon Hudon (Mar 14 2018 at 22:16):

That would deserve a good amount of documentation, that's true.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:16):

simp only [h] {single_pass := tt} is pretty close to rw-like rewriting

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:16):

I did know about simp only from TPIL but somehow it's one of those options which I would never use in practice because my initial reaction when I read TPIL was "whyever would you want to use simp only?"

#### Simon Hudon (Mar 14 2018 at 22:17):

And if you identify the lemmas that cause trouble you can disable it specifically with simp [my_rule, - naughty]

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:17):

and it's only more recently as I have become more experienced that I realise I need it, by which time I have forgotten about it

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:17):

and the simp docs which I PR'ed have explanations of how to find out which lemmas are causing trouble

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:17):

And to identify naughty lemmas you can use set_option trace.simplify.rewrite true

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:17):

yeah, I read that in the docs

which I wrote

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:17):

because I cannot manage without docs

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:18):

because I am an old man

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:18):

so no I don't know about the bazillion simp options

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:18):

if you just rattled a few off now I might add them to the docs

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:18):

I am in my late 40s :-)

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:18):

structure simp_config :=
(max_steps : nat           := simp.default_max_steps)
(contextual : bool         := ff)
(lift_eq : bool            := tt)
(canonize_instances : bool := tt)
(canonize_proofs : bool    := ff)
(use_axioms : bool         := tt)
(zeta : bool               := tt)
(beta : bool               := tt)
(eta  : bool               := tt)
(proj : bool               := tt) -- reduce projections
(iota : bool               := tt)
(iota_eqn : bool           := ff) -- reduce using all equation lemmas generated by equation/pattern-matching compiler
(constructor_eq : bool     := tt)
(single_pass : bool        := ff)
(fail_if_unchanged         := tt)
(memoize                   := tt)


#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:19):

as you can see, leo is hard at work with those docstrings :)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:25):

two out of 16 ain't bad, as Meat Loaf once said

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:25):

I am now going to have to rewrite some of my updated simp docs which I was editing as this post arrived.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:26):

About to be deleted: It is well-known that there are a bazillion simp options, although most are known only to the Lean Inner Circle. Examples which mere mortals know about are those documented in the reference manual and Theorem Proving In Lean.

#### Mario Carneiro (Mar 14 2018 at 22:32):

That's not even all of it - there is also the underlying command ext_simplify_core with lots of space for configurability. And dsimp has its own variants on all of this.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:40):

There are more options somehow:

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:41):

simp tactics in interactive mode have a new configuration parameter (discharger : tactic unit) a tactic for discharging subgoals created by the simplifier. If the tactic fails, the simplifier tries to discharge the subgoal by reducing it to true. Example: simp {discharger := assumption}.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:41):

from the changelog

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:42):

I can't get this to work though

#### Kevin Buzzard (Mar 14 2018 at 22:47):

the dischargeris a tactic unit, so you have to write it in non-interactive mode (or else have tactic open, which is I think what Leo did in that quote). simp {discharger := [assumption]} should work
but it's not that useful compared to simp *`