## Stream: maths

### Topic: Basic finite groups

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 04:24):

Do we have the symmetry group of order n!?

#### Mario Carneiro (Jul 27 2018 at 05:04):

There is perm (fin n), and you should be able to prove it is finite with the right cardinality using list.length_permutations

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 05:05):

equiv.perm (fin n)

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 05:15):

Do we have C_2 and in general C_n?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 05:15):

i.e. the cyclic group of order 2 and n

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 05:20):

hmm, Lean doesn't know that equiv.perm and list.perm are the same thing, so it might be hard to use list.length_permutations...

#### Mario Carneiro (Jul 27 2018 at 05:26):

hm, I'll put that on the todo list

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 27 2018 at 07:14):

We have $\mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z}$, right?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 07:14):

oh right that's in the not-mathlib

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 07:15):

I don't think they proved that it is a group

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 27 2018 at 07:15):

Aaah, I didn't keep track of what exactly ended up in mathlib.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 07:15):

by "not-mathlib" I mean the initial library

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 27 2018 at 07:15):

I assumed it was a ring by now.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 07:16):

no, there's no algebraic structure of fin n proven

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 27 2018 at 07:17):

But Chris did a lot of stuff mod n, right?

ah

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 27 2018 at 07:17):

Anyway, got to run... some talk on K-theory and motives is calling me.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 08:04):

@Johan Commelin The problem with fin n (the subtype of N) is that addition and subtraction are defined in core Lean in...umm...not really the way that a mathematician would expect. Chris Hughes did a bunch of stuff mod n yes, but not with fin n.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 08:06):

@Kevin Buzzard I don't really understand the problem with fin n though

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 08:08):

definition two : fin 4 := 2
definition three : fin 4 := 3
#reduce (two-three).val -- 0
#reduce (two+three).val -- 1


Addition rolls over, subtraction stops at 0. It's in core so can never be fixed. But of course one couls just define Zmodn n to be fin n and start again.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 08:08):

oh, the definition in core is wrong

right

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 10:04):

import data.fintype data.equiv.basic

namespace list

@[simp] lemma length_attach {α} (L : list α) :
L.attach.length = L.length :=
length_pmap

@[simp] lemma nth_le_attach {α} (L : list α) (i) (H : i < L.attach.length) :
(L.attach.nth_le i H).1 = L.nth_le i (length_attach L ▸ H) :=
calc  (L.attach.nth_le i H).1
= (L.attach.map subtype.val).nth_le i (by simpa using H) : by rw nth_le_map'
... = L.nth_le i _ : by congr; apply attach_map_val

@[simp] lemma nth_le_range {n} (i) (H : i < (range n).length) :
nth_le (range n) i H = i :=
option.some.inj $by rw [← nth_le_nth _, nth_range (by simpa using H)] attribute [simp] length_of_fn attribute [simp] nth_le_of_fn -- Congratulations, I proved that two things which have -- equally few lemmas are equal. theorem of_fn_eq_pmap {α n} {f : fin n → α} : of_fn f = pmap (λ i hi, f ⟨i, hi⟩) (range n) (λ _, mem_range.1) := by rw [pmap_eq_map_attach]; from ext_le (by simp) (λ i hi1 hi2, by simp at hi1; simp [nth_le_of_fn f ⟨i, hi1⟩]) theorem nodup_of_fn {α n} {f : fin n → α} (hf : function.injective f) : nodup (of_fn f) := by rw of_fn_eq_pmap; from nodup_pmap (λ _ _ _ _ H, fin.veq_of_eq$ hf H) (nodup_range n)

end list

variable (n : ℕ)

def Sym : Type :=
equiv.perm (fin n)

instance : has_coe_to_fun (Sym n) :=
equiv.has_coe_to_fun

@[extensionality] theorem Sym.ext (σ τ : Sym n)
(H : ∀ i, σ i = τ i) : σ = τ :=
equiv.ext _ _ H

instance : group (Sym n) :=
equiv.perm_group

section perm

variable {n}

def Sym.to_list (σ : Sym n) : list (fin n) :=
list.of_fn σ

theorem Sym.to_list_perm (σ : Sym n) :
σ.to_list ~ list.of_fn (1 : Sym n) :=
(list.perm_ext
(list.nodup_of_fn $σ.bijective.1) (list.nodup_of_fn$ (1 : Sym n).bijective.1)).2 $λ f, by rw [list.of_fn_eq_pmap, list.of_fn_eq_pmap, list.mem_pmap, list.mem_pmap]; from ⟨λ _, ⟨f.1, by simp [f.2], fin.eq_of_veq rfl⟩, λ _, ⟨(σ⁻¹ f).1, by simp [(σ⁻¹ f).2], by convert equiv.apply_inverse_apply σ f; from congr_arg _ (fin.eq_of_veq rfl)⟩⟩ def list.to_sym (L : list (fin n)) (HL : L ~ list.of_fn (1 : Sym n)) : Sym n := { to_fun := λ f, list.nth_le L f.1$
by rw [list.perm_length HL, list.length_of_fn]; from f.2,
inv_fun := λ f, ⟨list.index_of f L,
begin
convert list.index_of_lt_length.2 _,
{ rw [list.perm_length HL, list.length_of_fn] },
{ rw [list.mem_of_perm HL, list.mem_iff_nth_le],
refine ⟨f.1, _, _⟩,
{ rw list.length_of_fn,
exact f.2 },
{ apply list.nth_le_of_fn } }
end⟩,
left_inv := λ f, fin.eq_of_veq $list.nth_le_index_of ((list.perm_nodup HL).2$ list.nodup_of_fn $λ _ _, id) _ _, right_inv := λ f, list.index_of_nth_le$ list.index_of_lt_length.2 $(list.mem_of_perm HL).2$ list.mem_iff_nth_le.2 $⟨f.1, by rw list.length_of_fn; from f.2, list.nth_le_of_fn _ _⟩ } @[simp] lemma list.to_sym_apply (L : list (fin n)) (HL : L ~ list.of_fn (1 : Sym n)) (i) : (L.to_sym HL) i = L.nth_le i.1 (by simp [list.perm_length HL, i.2]) := rfl @[simp] lemma Sym.to_list_to_sym (σ : Sym n) : σ.to_list.to_sym σ.to_list_perm = σ := Sym.ext _ _ _$ λ i, fin.eq_of_veq $by simp [Sym.to_list] end perm instance : decidable_eq (Sym n) := @function.injective.decidable_eq _ _ Sym.to_list _$ λ σ τ h,
Sym.ext n _ _ $λ i, have H1 : σ.to_list.nth_le i.1 _ = _, from list.nth_le_of_fn _ _, have H2 : τ.to_list.nth_le i.1 _ = _, from list.nth_le_of_fn _ _, by rw [← H1, ← H2]; congr; exact h instance : fintype (Sym n) := fintype.of_list (list.pmap (λ L HL, list.to_sym L HL) (list.permutations (list.of_fn (1 : Sym n))) (λ _, (list.mem_permutations _ _).1))$ λ σ,
list.mem_pmap.2 ⟨σ.to_list,
(list.mem_permutations _ _).2 σ.to_list_perm,
by simp⟩

/-
theorem Sym.card : fintype.card (Sym n) = nat.fact n :=
calc  fintype.card (Sym n)
= _ : _
... = (list.of_fn ((1 : Sym n) : fin n → fin n)).permutations.length : list.to_finset_card_of_nodup sorry
... = nat.fact (list.of_fn ((1 : Sym n) : fin n → fin n)).length : list.length_permutations _
... = nat.fact n : by simp
-/


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 10:04):

@Mario Carneiro I think this all can go to mathlib

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 10:17):

theorem Cayley (α : Type*) [group α] [fintype α] :
∃ f : α → Sym (fintype.card α), function.injective f ∧ is_group_hom f :=
nonempty.rec_on (fintype.card_eq.1 $fintype.card_fin$ fintype.card α) $λ φ, ⟨λ x, ⟨λ i, φ.symm (x * φ i), λ i, φ.symm (x⁻¹ * φ i), λ i, by simp, λ i, by simp⟩, λ x y H, have H1 : _ := congr_fun (equiv.mk.inj H).1 (φ.symm 1), by simpa using H1, ⟨λ x y, Sym.ext _ _ _$ λ i, by simp [mul_assoc]⟩⟩


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 10:17):

Cayley's theorem :P

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 10:19):

TODO: prove that your list of permutations has no duplicates

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 10:26):

I think @Chris Hughes and @Morenikeji Neri were thinking about this sort of thing last week (they were interested in proving that the size of S_n was n!). Chris also defined the signature of a permutation -- it was interesting to think of a workable definition. Eventually we settled on $sgn(\sigma)=(-1)^{N(\sigma)}$ where $N(\sigma)$ is the number of pairs $(i,j)$ with $i and $\sigma(i)>\sigma(j)$.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 27 2018 at 10:26):

did they prove that it is a homomorphism?

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 27 2018 at 10:27):

@Johan Commelin The problem with fin n (the subtype of N) is that addition and subtraction are defined in core Lean in...umm...not really the way that a mathematician would expect. Chris Hughes did a bunch of stuff mod n yes, but not with fin n.

Right, but no-one said that C_n needed to have fin n as carrier type. I don't know what Chris used as carrier type, but I suppose one could use that. Or, like you suggest, just define C_n to be fin n, use that the definition is not reducible, and put new algebraic structures on it that behave properly.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 10:30):

did they prove that it is a homomorphism?

You need both that, and the fact that the signature of a transposition is -1. Neither are too hard ("in maths") and I would imagine that Chris could manage them in Lean, but I don't know if he did it.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 27 2018 at 10:52):

I

did they prove that it is a homomorphism?

You need both that, and the fact that the signature of a transposition is -1. Neither are too hard ("in maths") and I would imagine that Chris could manage them in Lean, but I don't know if he did it.

I'm working on it now. After that I plan to find the product of disjoint cycles representation computably.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 10:56):

I know that this disjoint cycles result is presented to the first years as one of the highlights of the group theory course, but is it actually useful? I think the only reason they do this is that they have to do something group-ish and for some unknown reason they do not define homomorphisms of groups until the 2nd year at Imperial! All this will change with the new syllabus. This disjoint cycle stuff feels to me to be very much a product of a bygone era, when the classification was an active area of research (I suspect the course was written by one of the old school finite group theorists that used to work here).

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 10:56):

OTOH maybe the philosophy is "do everything"

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 27 2018 at 15:06):

Maybe I won't do that then. I thought it would be cool to do a has_repr, for perm with disjoint cycle notation. I've proved sign is a hom, but not surjectivity yet.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 27 2018 at 15:54):

I thought it would be cool to do a has_repr, for perm with disjoint cycle notation.

That is a good point! The other possibility for has_repr is just listing (sigma(1),sigma(2),...,sigma(n))but that is (a) unnecessarily big and (b) hard to interpret, so I'm not sure it's of much use. Go with disjoint cycles if you can face it -- making stuff look nice is important!

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 11:13):

https://github.com/kckennylau/Lean/blob/master/Sym.lean

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 11:13):

def Sym.equiv : Sym n ≃ fin n.fact :=
nat.rec_on n Sym.equiv_0 $λ n ih, calc Sym (n+1) ≃ (fin (n+1) × fin n.fact) : Sym.equiv_succ ih ... ≃ fin (n+1).fact : fin_prod instance : decidable_eq (Sym n) := equiv.decidable_eq_of_equiv Sym.equiv instance : fintype (Sym n) := fintype.of_equiv _ Sym.equiv.symm theorem Sym.card : fintype.card (Sym n) = nat.fact n := (fintype.of_equiv_card Sym.equiv.symm).trans$
fintype.card_fin _


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 11:28):

@Mario Carneiro into which files should the content of my file go?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 11:41):

Mathematicians do a huge amount of work under various finiteness hypotheses. It's very easy to write down the definition of a vector space in Lean, but nobody ever proves theorems about vector spaces other than the most trivial things. The vector spaces that people care about have extra structure on, for example they're finite-dimensional, or they're separable Hilbert spares or whatever -- some extra finiteness assumptions. As a simple example, my students seem to need "order of the element divides the order of the group" a lot at the minute, and this is a theorem about finite groups. As a more complex example, a commutative ring is Noetherian if all its ideals are finitely-generated. I have a several-hundred-page-long book about etale cohomology which on page 1, when explaining assumptions and notation, says "all rings are assumed Noetherian". [and they're also all commutative].

This makes me wonder whether "finite group" should be promoted in the heierarchy, to be a class of its own, extending group, and that theorems about finite groups like "order of the element divides order of the group" and "Sym n is a finite group" could go in there.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 11:58):

What's the advantage of [finite_group G] over [fintype G] and [group G]? Bundling classes only really makes sense when there are fields that depend on both structures, like left_distrib depending on both monoid and add_monoid

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 12:02):

Well I guess that's what I wanted to discuss. Could one not also ask what the advantage of [group G] was over [monoid G] and [has_inv G] and [has_mul_left_inv G] or some such question?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 12:04):

We decide that group is important somehow, important enough to have its own typeclass. I am suggesting that finite-dimensional vector spaces, finite groups and Noetherian rings are also important enough to have their own typeclasses because these are the things that people study in practice. A group is a basic foundational concept in mathematics but there are only a few theorems that you can prove about all groups without any hypotheses because a general group is extremely general.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 12:07):

I see. You are arguing that finite_group G should be interpreted as "group for which the underlying type is finite" because in some sense these are completely unrelated concepts. But a theorem like "order of the element divides the order of the group" depends on both structures. This is not a field though, it's a theorem. So is that the design principle? If you have 100 theorems about finite groups then that's not enough -- the user is expected to say "a group, for which the underlying set is finite" 100 times?

And of course there are 100 theorems about finite groups -- Sylow's theorems are just the tip of the iceberg Chris :-) The 3rd year group theory course (at least the one I took as an UG) was just 24 lectures of definitions and theorems about finite groups. Maybe that's changed now the landscape has changed, I'm not sure, but all our definitions of solvable, nilpotent etc were almost immediately implied to the finite group case, and only applied to that case.

#### Mario Carneiro (Jul 28 2018 at 12:25):

maybe group_theory? It's pretty basic, but I'm not sure about the restriction to fin n entailed here. Anything that doesn't mention Sym can go in its respective files

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 14:48):

Let's say we want to define the signature/parity of the permutation. In which type should the signature/parity live?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 14:57):

That's an interesting question. I am not sure anyone ever adds signatures together. I would argue that mathematically it lives in an abstract group with two elements called +1 and -1. However the CS people might want to choose a concrete implementation of this group rather than building it from scratch I guess.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 14:58):

I will remark that the people defining quadratic residues / non-residues in my summer project just defined the values of the Legendre symbol to be integers.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:05):

I defined it to be an integer mod 2.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:07):

I imagine you probably want a group structure on the image, so you can prove it's a group_hom, and it's kernel is a subgroup etc.

right

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:09):

Unfortunately, the add groups not being groups issue comes into play here.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:10):

And it would be nice if all tactics like finish also worked on anything isomorphic to Prop

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:12):

then which group should i define it on?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 15:16):

the subtype of Z consisting of things which square to 1?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:16):

is that the best group?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 15:16):

What about an abstract group of order 2 equipped with a coercion to Z?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:16):

or maybe I should just create an inductive type

right

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 15:17):

Maybe forget about the coercion to Z and see how long it takes people to complain.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:17):

why do we need coercion to Z?

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:18):

It seems like the best thing is to choose a canonical group of order 2, and always use that for anything that requires a group of order 2. That group should be called either C2, or integers mod 2,

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:18):

but we would also need Cn

Exactly.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:19):

and how would we build that?

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:19):

But there's no point having C2 and some other group of order 2 with a different name

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 15:20):

inductive mu2
| plus_one : mu2
| minus_one : mu2

open mu2

definition neg : mu2 → mu2
| plus_one := minus_one
| minus_one := plus_one

instance : has_one mu2 := ⟨plus_one⟩
instance : has_neg mu2 := ⟨neg⟩

#check (-1 : mu2)
#check (1 : mu2)


ok

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 15:21):

I think the group law for the target of the signature map is traditionally multiplication

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 15:24):

But I think it's worth breaking with that tradition for the sake of only having one group of order 2 in lean to deal with.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:28):

section mu2

@[derive decidable_eq]
inductive mu2 : Type
| plus_one : mu2
| minus_one : mu2

open mu2

definition neg : mu2 → mu2
| plus_one := minus_one
| minus_one := plus_one

instance : has_one mu2 := ⟨plus_one⟩
instance : has_neg mu2 := ⟨neg⟩

instance : comm_group mu2 :=
{ mul := λ x y, mu2.rec_on x (mu2.rec_on y 1 (-1)) (mu2.rec_on y (-1) 1),
mul_assoc := λ x y z, by cases x; cases y; cases z; refl,
mul_one := λ x, by cases x; refl,
one_mul := λ x, by cases x; refl,
inv := id,
mul_left_inv := λ x, by cases x; refl,
mul_comm := λ x y, by cases x; cases y; refl,
.. mu2.has_one }

instance : fintype mu2 :=
{ elems := {1, -1},
complete := λ x, mu2.cases_on x (or.inr $or.inl rfl) (or.inl rfl) } theorem mu2.card : fintype.card mu2 = 2 := rfl end mu2  #### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:28): theorem mu2.card : fintype.card mu2 = 2 := rfl  #### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 15:44): instance : decidable_linear_order (fin n) := { le_refl := λ ⟨i, hi⟩, nat.le_refl i, le_trans := λ ⟨i, hi⟩ ⟨j, hj⟩ ⟨k, hk⟩ hij hjk, nat.le_trans hij hjk, le_antisymm := λ ⟨i, hi⟩ ⟨j, hj⟩ hij hji, fin.eq_of_veq$ nat.le_antisymm hij hji,
le_total := λ ⟨i, hi⟩ ⟨j, hj⟩, or.cases_on (@nat.le_total i j) or.inl or.inr,
decidable_le := fin.decidable_le,
.. fin.has_le, .. }


#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 17:36):

We want 2 cyclic groups of order n, one multiplicative, the other additive.

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 17:38):

The mu_n example by Kevin will pop up a lot in number theory.

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 17:38):

I suppose that Lean Forward is going to do quite a bit of number theory pretty soon.

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 17:39):

And then additive cyclic groups also show up everywhere (e.g. integers mod n).

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 17:41):

If R is a ring, do we already know that units R is a group? If R is in fact a field, then every finite subgroup of units R is a cyclic group. This is a cute theorem about (finite!) groups. And those cyclic groups are pretty multiplicative.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:52):

def Sym.is_valid (L : list (Sym n)) : Prop :=
∀ τ ∈ L, ∃ i j, i ≠ j ∧ τ = Sym.swap i j

Sym.list_swap_valid : ∀ (σ : Sym ?M_1), Sym.is_valid (Sym.list_swap σ)

Sym.list_swap_prod : ∀ (σ : Sym ?M_1), list.prod (Sym.list_swap σ) = σ


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:52):

I proved constructively that every permutation can be written as the product of transpositions

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:52):

I actually didn't know that it is possible with at most n transpositions

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:52):

so I actually learnt (discovered) something new

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:53):

I also learnt how to use well_founded.fix and well_founded.induction

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 18:56):

You can do it with \le (n-1) transpositions, right?

yes

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:57):

https://github.com/kckennylau/Lean/blob/master/Sym.lean

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 18:57):

So now we only need disjoint cycle representation.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:57):

although I didn't prove the bound

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:57):

no, we don't need DCR

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 18:57):

it is way overrated

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 18:57):

It is nice for printing stuff.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:03):

we should prove the homomorphism first

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 19:06):

That shouldn't be too hard anymore, right?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:06):

no, that's a whole nother business

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:06):

they involve completely different skills

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 19:07):

What, the homomorphism?

yes

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 19:07):

Hmmm, does it help if you change the definition of sgn?

Maybe not

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:08):

you need to prove that if a bunch of transpositions multiply to 1, then you have an even number of transpositions

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:08):

that involves somehow traversing the whole list

Fair enough

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:10):

which I'm not exactly comfortable with doing in Lean

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 19:15):

you need to prove that if a bunch of transpositions multiply to 1, then you have an even number of transpositions

AFAIK the best way to do this is to compute with signatures via the definition Chris used -- signature of sigma is (-1) ^ (the number of pairs (i,j) with i < j and sigma(i) > sigma(j) )

hmm, maybe

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 19:34):

It's not so hard to prove that this is multiplicative. You can say that an unordered pair is "switched" if their order is switched -- this is well-defined. if sigma switches a pair and tau switches them back then the composite scores 0 and each of sigma and tau scores 1.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 19:36):

I have proved it's multiplicative, and that transpositions are odd. My proof that transpositions are conjugate was brilliant, I did split_ifs and then solved 84 goals at once with cc

#### Patrick Massot (Jul 28 2018 at 19:39):

I have a challenge for all the permutation experts. From a permutation of fin n (or any version) define a map from a product of n topological space to the permuted product and prove it's continuous. When n=2, this is continuous_id and continuous_swap. Part of the challenge is that A × B × C is not the type of triple (x.1, x.2, x.3), it's secretely A × (B × C) with elements (x.1, (x.2.1, x.2.2))

#### Patrick Massot (Jul 28 2018 at 19:40):

Note that I don't need this, I only want to make sure you don't get bored

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 28 2018 at 19:40):

can you give us the inputs? i.e. how is the n topological space represented?

#### Johan Commelin (Jul 28 2018 at 19:44):

I have proved it's multiplicative, and that transpositions are odd. My proof that transpositions are conjugate was brilliant, I did split_ifs and then solved 84 goals at once with cc

Hmm, that crazy number 84 really has some special place in mathematics... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurwitz%27s_automorphisms_theorem)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 28 2018 at 20:23):

That's great! Somehow I'm surprised it's quite so many. You have the transposition (a b) and then you're trying to figure out whether the pair (i j) got re-aranged. So you have cases depending on whether i<a,i=a,a<i<b,i=b,i>b and the same with j. The clever thing is to get it so that the goals are solvable afterwards I guess, rather than just counting.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 28 2018 at 20:28):

The proof had nothing to do with sign. This was the proof

lemma transpose_conj {α : Type*} [decidable_eq α] {a b x y : α}
(hab : a ≠ b) (hxy : x ≠ y) :
∃ f : perm α, f * transpose x y * f⁻¹ = transpose a b :=
⟨if x = b then transpose y a
else if y = a then transpose x b


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:46):

10 minutes behind you :-)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 18:46):

So now you can both define determinant of an n x n matrix!

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:47):

oh no, we could already define determinant just fine, it's the multiplicative part that needs this result

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 18:47):

Is your sign defined using the list of transpositions?

yes

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:47):

oh, and trust me, do not look at Lines 720 - 831

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:48):

https://github.com/kckennylau/Lean/blob/master/Sym.lean#L720

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:48):

Is your sign defined using the list of transpositions?

def sgn (σ : Sym n) : mu2 :=
(-1) ^ σ.list_step.length


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:48):

and list_step is a computable (!) function

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:49):

def list_step (σ : Sym n) : list (step n) :=
by refine well_founded.fix list_step.aux.wf _ σ; from
λ σ ih, if H : σ.support = ∅ then []
else let ⟨i, hi⟩ := σ.support_choice H in
step.mk' (σ i) i (support_def.1 hi)
:: ih (swap (σ i) i * σ) (support_swap_mul hi)


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:49):

by induction (recursion) on the support

What's it do?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:49):

it expresses a permutation as a product of transpositions

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:51):

I just realized kernel of group hom is not in mathlib

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 18:53):

(btw if anyone is reading my code, all my "choice" functions are computable :P)

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 19:09):

I think kernel of a group hom is somewhere in mathlib...is_group_hom.ker?

ah right

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 19:12):

def Alt : Type :=
is_group_hom.ker (@Sym.sgn n)

instance : group (Alt n) :=
by unfold Alt; apply_instance


#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 19:14):

You can now prove A_5 is simple by counting conjugacy classes.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 19:14):

hmm, not the proof of simple that i know

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 19:14):

is there an easier proof?

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 19:14):

oh no, we could already define determinant just fine, it's the multiplicative part that needs this result

Yes, in fact Keji did it already, by expanding along the top row. He could prove nothing about it from this definition :-)

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 19:15):

how about Chris proving that any simple group must have order at least 60 lol

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 19:16):

is there an easier proof?

You could use Sylow to prove that group of order strictly dividing 60 was solvable, and then there's some crappy trick with 3-cycles (which I used to set on the 2nd year group theory course) which shows that A_5 has no non-trivial cyclic quotients. The counting proof is pretty trivial! Any normal subgroup is a union of conjugacy classes but any non-trivial sum of conj class sizes doesn't even equal a divisor of 60.

2018-07-30.png

glorious

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 19:48):

theorem eq_sgn (f : Sym n → mu2) [is_group_hom f]
(s : step n) (H1 : f s.eval = -1) (σ : Sym n) :
f σ = sgn σ :=
begin
have H2 : ∀ t : step n, f t.eval = -1,
{ intro t,
by_cases H2 : s.1 = t.1,
{ by_cases H3 : s.2 = t.2,
{ rw [← step.ext _ _ H2 H3, H1] },
have H4 : t.eval = swap s.2 t.2 * s.eval * swap s.2 t.2,
{ dsimp [step.eval, swap], ext k, dsimp,
have := ne_of_lt s.3, have := ne_of_lt t.3,
split_ifs; cc },
simp [H4, is_group_hom.mul f, H1] },
by_cases H3 : s.1 = t.2,
{ have H4 : t.eval = swap s.2 t.1 * s.eval * swap s.2 t.1,
{ dsimp [step.eval, swap], ext k, dsimp,
have := ne_of_lt s.3, have := ne_of_lt t.3,
split_ifs; cc },
simp [H4, is_group_hom.mul f, H1] },
by_cases H4 : s.2 = t.1,
{ have H5 : t.eval = swap s.1 t.2 * s.eval * swap s.1 t.2,
{ dsimp [step.eval, swap], ext k, dsimp,
have := ne_of_lt s.3, have := ne_of_lt t.3,
split_ifs; cc },
simp [H5, is_group_hom.mul f, H1] },
by_cases H5 : s.2 = t.2,
{ have H6 : t.eval = swap s.1 t.1 * s.eval * swap s.1 t.1,
{ dsimp [step.eval, swap], ext k, dsimp,
have := ne_of_lt s.3, have := ne_of_lt t.3,
split_ifs; cc },
simp [H6, is_group_hom.mul f, H1] },
have H6 : t.eval = swap s.1 t.1 * swap s.2 t.2 * s.eval * swap s.2 t.2 * swap s.1 t.1,
{ dsimp [step.eval, swap], ext k, dsimp,
have := ne_of_lt s.3, have := ne_of_lt t.3,
split_ifs; cc },
rw H6,
repeat { rw is_group_hom.mul f },
rw [H1, mul_assoc (f (swap s.1 t.1)), mul_assoc (f (swap s.1 t.1))],
rw [mu2.mul_neg_one, mu2.neg_mul_self], simp },
have H3 := list_step_prod σ,
revert H3, generalize : list_step σ = L, intro H3, subst H3,
induction L with hd tl ih, { simp [is_group_hom.one f] },
simp [is_group_hom.mul f, ih, H2]
end


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 19:48):

@Kevin Buzzard @Chris Hughes

Ouch

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:52):

I think I just discovered a uniform definition of a permutation that can conjugate (ab) to become (cd)

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:52):

uniform as in doesn't rely on casing

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 20:53):

How would you manage that?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:53):

to be fair, I did use swap, which relies on casing

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:53):

swap a b swaps a and b regardless of whether they are distinct

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 20:54):

That's easy then.

Probably

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:54):

oh btw a and b are distinct; and c and d are distinct

I give up

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 20:57):

I can shorten a proof by a few lines if I work it out.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:58):

def eq_sgn_aux4 (s t : step n) : Sym n :=
swap (swap s.1 t.1 s.2) t.2 * swap s.1 t.1

theorem eq_sgn_aux3 (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t s.1 = t.1 :=
begin
dsimp [eq_sgn_aux4, swap],
have := ne_of_lt s.3,
have := ne_of_lt t.3,
simp, split_ifs; cc
end

theorem eq_sgn_aux2 (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t s.2 = t.2 :=
begin
dsimp [eq_sgn_aux4, swap],
simp
end


#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 20:58):

But also probably massively slow down cimpilation time

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:58):

looks like I'm finally useful :P

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 20:59):

(ac)(bd) conjugates (ab) into (cd). In general conjugating by g sends (abc) to (ga gb gc) and the same for products of cycles

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:59):

your thing only works when we have more separation axioms

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 20:59):

here we only know that a != b and c != d

No

wait what

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:01):

ok now I'm shocked

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:01):

I don't believe it

ah

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:07):

/me finds a hole to hide from his embarrassment

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:14):

in my defense, my definition is easier to work with

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:15):

def eq_sgn_aux4 (s t : step n) : Sym n :=
swap (swap s.1 t.1 s.2) t.2 * swap s.1 t.1

theorem eq_sgn_aux3 (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t s.1 = t.1 :=
begin
dsimp [eq_sgn_aux4, swap],
have := ne_of_lt s.3,
have := ne_of_lt t.3,
simp, split_ifs; cc
end

theorem eq_sgn_aux2 (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t s.2 = t.2 :=
begin
dsimp [eq_sgn_aux4, swap],
simp
end

theorem eq_sgn_aux (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t * s.eval * (eq_sgn_aux4 s t)⁻¹ = t.eval :=
begin
ext k,
by_cases H1 : k = t.1,
{ subst H1,
dsimp [step.eval],
simp [equiv.symm_apply_eq.2 (eq_sgn_aux3 s t).symm, eq_sgn_aux2] },
by_cases H2 : k = t.2,
{ subst H2,
dsimp [step.eval],
simp [equiv.symm_apply_eq.2 (eq_sgn_aux2 s t).symm, eq_sgn_aux3] },
dsimp [step.eval, swap],
simp [H1, H2, eq_sgn_aux2, eq_sgn_aux3]
end

theorem eq_sgn (f : Sym n → mu2) [is_group_hom f]
(s : step n) (H1 : f s.eval = -1) (σ : Sym n) :
f σ = sgn σ :=
begin
have H2 : ∀ t : step n, f t.eval = -1,
{ intro t,
rw [← eq_sgn_aux s t],
simp [is_group_hom.mul f, is_group_hom.inv f, H1] },
have H3 := list_step_prod σ,
revert H3, generalize : list_step σ = L, intro H3, subst H3,
induction L with hd tl ih, { simp [is_group_hom.one f] },
simp [is_group_hom.mul f, ih, H2]
end


#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 21:16):

If a = d then (ac)(bd)(ab)(bd)(ac) a = (ac)(ba)(ab)(ba)(ac) a = a != c = (cd) a. What's my mistake? I'm probably being an idiot.

hmm...

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:21):

@Chris Hughes how did you find that counter-example?

(cd)a=a.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:21):

(cd)a = (ca)a = c

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 21:22):

It's certainly true that if sigma sends x to y, then g sigma g^{-1} sends gx to gy.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:22):

yes, that is true

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 21:22):

example : ∃ x y a b : fin 3, x ≠ y ∧ a ≠ b ∧
transpose x b * transpose y a * transpose x y * (transpose x b * transpose y a)⁻¹ ≠
transpose a b := dec_trivial


ah

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:23):

relying on the automation

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 21:23):

Oh ha ha (ac)(bd) is not the map sending a to c and b to d

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 21:24):

The map that conjugates (ab) into (cd) is "anything sending a to c and b to d"

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 21:24):

In fact the general solution is "either send a to c and b to d, or send a to d and b to c -- and do anything you like with everything else"

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 21:31):

How briefly can you write down such a function?

I just did

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:31):

def eq_sgn_aux4 (s t : step n) : Sym n :=
swap (swap s.1 t.1 s.2) t.2 * swap s.1 t.1

theorem eq_sgn_aux3 (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t s.1 = t.1 :=
begin
dsimp [eq_sgn_aux4, swap],
have := ne_of_lt s.3,
have := ne_of_lt t.3,
simp, split_ifs; cc
end

theorem eq_sgn_aux2 (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t s.2 = t.2 :=
begin
dsimp [eq_sgn_aux4, swap],
simp
end

theorem eq_sgn_aux (s t : step n) :
eq_sgn_aux4 s t * s.eval * (eq_sgn_aux4 s t)⁻¹ = t.eval :=
begin
ext k,
by_cases H1 : k = t.1,
{ subst H1,
dsimp [step.eval],
simp [equiv.symm_apply_eq.2 (eq_sgn_aux3 s t).symm, eq_sgn_aux2] },
by_cases H2 : k = t.2,
{ subst H2,
dsimp [step.eval],
simp [equiv.symm_apply_eq.2 (eq_sgn_aux2 s t).symm, eq_sgn_aux3] },
dsimp [step.eval, swap],
simp [H1, H2, eq_sgn_aux2, eq_sgn_aux3]
end


#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 21:32):

Why does swap have 3 arguments?

I see

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:32):

it only has 2, then it is coerced to become a function

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:38):

I finally proved that my step is a fintype

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:39):

example : ∃ s t : step 3,
swap s.1 t.1 * swap s.2 t.2 * s.eval * swap s.2 t.2 * swap s.1 t.1
≠ t.eval :=
dec_trivial


What is step?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:41):

@[derive decidable_eq]
structure step : Type :=
(fst : fin n)
(snd : fin n)
(lt  : fst < snd)


#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:42):

it represents a transposition

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 29 2018 at 21:42):

https://github.com/kckennylau/Lean/blob/master/Sym.lean

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 21:43):

I used something similar

def fin_pairs_lt (n : ℕ) : finset (Σ a : fin n, fin n) :=
(univ : finset (fin n)).sigma (λ a, (range a.1).attach_fin
(λ m hm, lt_trans (mem_range.1 hm) a.2))


#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 29 2018 at 21:45):

The fact that if sigma sends x to y then g sigma g^{-1} sends gx to gy is a special case of "transport de structure". It's more easily seen if you generalise. If sigma is a permutation of a set X, and if g is a bijection between X and another set Y, then g identifies X and Y, so sigma transports over to a permutation of Y. The explicit formula for the permutation of Y is g sigma g^{-1}. If you think of g as a dictionary identifying X and Y, then a in X gets identified with ga in Y, and b in X gets identified with gb in Y. If sigma sends a to b, then the transported sigma sends ga to gb. The counterintuitive idea now is to imagine that X = Y and that g is not the identity map but perhaps some other bijection. If you think about things this way then the fact that e.g. conjugate permutations have the same cycle type becomes trivial.

#### Chris Hughes (Jul 29 2018 at 22:08):

I had to think about it like that when I defined sign on an arbitrary fintype, and not just fin. I used equiv_fin to define the sign, but I had to prove that sign did not depend on which equiv_fin I chose, which i used the conjugation property for by combining my two different equiv_fins together to make a perm and conjugating by that perm

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 30 2018 at 07:24):

theorem inversions_eq_sgn : ∀ σ : Sym n, inversions σ = sgn σ :=
nat.cases_on n dec_trivial $λ n, nat.cases_on n dec_trivial$ λ n σ,
eq_sgn inversions (step01 n) inversions_step01 σ


#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 30 2018 at 07:28):

example : ∃ x y a b : fin 3, x ≠ y ∧ a ≠ b ∧
transpose x b * transpose y a * transpose x y * (transpose x b * transpose y a)⁻¹ ≠
transpose a b := dec_trivial


Did this work out of the box? I was going to use it in my talk today! But

theorem A : ∃ a b : fin 3, a = b := dec_trivial


doesn't work for me. Do I need an import?

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 30 2018 at 07:28):

maybe import fintype

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 30 2018 at 07:33):

this is interesting. fintype.decidable_exists_fintype isn't in the online Lean

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 30 2018 at 07:34):

it was added 18 days ago

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 30 2018 at 07:40):

Oh I think that might have been because of some other problem I had, which Chris fixed. Oh I remember -- it was for Ellen's dots and boxes project. She wanted to write basic definitions like "if the number of times this multiset contains 3 is at most 1, and if ..., then blah" and Lean was demanding decidability proofs. I asked why and Chris and Simon just fixed everything up so it worked.

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 30 2018 at 07:41):

'tis a small world

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 30 2018 at 07:42):

rofl I had a scratch file open with the "not working" theorem A, and I just imported analysis.topology.continuity to think about Patrick's comment about continuous being a class and it fixed my proof :-)

#### Kenny Lau (Jul 30 2018 at 07:42):

lol

Last updated: May 10 2021 at 07:15 UTC