# Zulip Chat Archive

## Stream: maths

### Topic: Derivations

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:29):

I'm interested in defining derivations (or in having someone else define them!) and I'm wondering how hard we should try to be general.

Thanks to @Nicolò Cavalleri I have seen this thread:

https://leanprover.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/116395-maths/topic/derivation

where @Kenny Lau sketched out some superb stuff but seems to have shelved it a year ago.

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:30):

Consider the following (informal) theorems / definitions:

- The exceptional Lie algebra g₂ is equivalent to the derivations of the octonions
- Every derivation of a semisimple Lie algebra is inner
- For commutative algebras there exists a universal derivation through which all others factor

For now I'm only interested in 1 above but I would like if the same definition of derivation worked for each.

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:31):

Mathematically, given a possibly-non-associative algebra $A$, a derivation is an additive group $M$ that is simultaneously a left- and right- $A$-module (not necessarily a bimodule since I want to cater for the non-associative cases 1 and 2 with the algebras as left-right modules over themselves via multiplication) together with a linear map: $d : A \to M$

satisfying: $d(ab) = (da) • b + a • db$

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:33):

Unfortunately, I immediately encounter a few issues if I think about formalising this in Mathlib.

Specifically:

A. We do not have a definition of not-necessarily-associative algebras

B. We only have left modules

C. The product on Lie algebras comes from an instance of `has_bracket`

rather than `has_mul`

To me (A) is fine; indeed building up the theory of non-necessarily-associative algebras, say as far as basic facts about composition algebras, would probably be very rewarding. Everyone knows the octonions are loads of fun!

For (B) maybe there's no issue here provided I'm willing to talk about opposite rings.

So it's (C) that really concerns me. Even with (A) and (B) out of the way, we're be faced with the problem that Lie algebras would not definitionally be non-associative algebras and so we'd be forced to have a separate `lie_derivation`

definition and annoying logic to transport language back and forth.

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:33):

I realise this is all rather waffly but I'd be very grateful for any comments, especially with respect to (C). I do hope the above makes sense, I have had some wine.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 21 2020 at 21:41):

Your point is that the operation on the octonians is usually written `*`

but the operation on a Lie algebra is usually written `[a,b]`

and you want these both to be instances of a non-associative algebra class. Yeah, this is an issue, I agree. You can either bundle the operation into the definition of the class, or you can write `to_bracketive`

:-/

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:42):

Oh, I realise I have a thinko above wrt (B) I should be talking about modules of a possibly-non-associative _algebra_ and I'd need some convincing there's a sensible representation theory of these

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:42):

@Kevin Buzzard Yes that's exactly my point.

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 21 2020 at 21:43):

I think I'll need to sleep on this, the more I think about this, the slightly less trivial it seems to be to make the general definition I'd like.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 22 2020 at 10:34):

@Yury G. Kudryashov let's say Oliver wanted to make a variant `has_foo`

of `has_add`

, and we wanted `too_fooitive`

to work in some part of mathematics, e.g. the theory of Lie algebras, translating between theorems with a typeclass `has_foo`

and theorems with a typeclass `has_mul`

(which also happened to be Lie algebras). At the very least you'd need some kind of dictionary from the `mul`

, `one`

, `inv`

words to the corresponding abbreviations in your language. If we can't do this, then how do we put the R-algebra structure on 2x2 real matrices coming from the Lie bracket? Those matrices already have an R-algebra structure, coming from matrix multiplication.

#### Yury G. Kudryashov (Jul 22 2020 at 15:14):

I see two possible approaches to `has_mul`

vs `has_bracket`

: (1) type tag like `multiplicative`

/`additive`

; (2) `to_additive`

-style attribute.

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 22 2020 at 20:50):

OK thank you both. I hope to have time to return to this in a week or so. For now I'm mentally summarising this as "while awkward, solutions exist".

#### Yury G. Kudryashov (Jul 23 2020 at 04:10):

Feel free to ask questions about pros and cons of each approach. I don't read all the messages every day, so the best way to get a faster reply from me is to @ tag me.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Jul 23 2020 at 07:03):

I see. So `lie_algebra.to_nonassociative_algebra`

sends `L`

to the defeq `to_multiplicative L`

and then you just pray that Lean guesses the right multiplication

#### Yury G. Kudryashov (Jul 23 2020 at 13:01):

Yes, you define `instance to_nonassoc_algebra_has_mul [has_bracket L] : has_mul (to_nonassoc_algebra L) := ⟨λ x y, (bracket x y : L)⟩`

, then restate all theorems you need about `has_mul`

version in terms of `has_bracket`

with proofs `:= @mul_thm (to_nonassoc_algebra L) ...`

(see `algebra/group_power`

for example).

#### Oliver Nash (Jul 23 2020 at 21:15):

Thanks @Yury G. Kudryashov I look forward to trying to use this in the near future. I appreciate the guidance!

Last updated: May 18 2021 at 08:14 UTC