Zulip Chat Archive

Stream: maths

Topic: Lebesgue number lemma


view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:24):

In mathlib we have a strange version of the Lebesgue number lemma which assumes compactness instead of sequential compactness. In particular it's not so useful when proving that sequentially compact subspaces of metric spaces are compact. This strange version however is derived from a version on uniform space where sequential compactness is probably not enough. My current plan is to prove a uniform space version assuming sequential compactness but also assuming the uniformity is countably generated. Does it sound good? @Reid Barton it seems you wrote those.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:25):

Is there any use of the versions of the Lebesgue assuming only compactness (provided we know that sequentially compact is equivalent to compact in metric spaces)?

view this post on Zulip Reid Barton (Apr 14 2020 at 20:40):

I don't know anything about sequential compactness. But certainly I only intended to ever apply the Lebesgue number lemma to spaces like [0, 1]^n.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:41):

Say I want to prove a subset SS of Rn\mathbb{R}^n is compact iff every sequence in SS has a converging subsequence.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:42):

How would you do that?

view this post on Zulip Reid Barton (Apr 14 2020 at 20:42):

Look in a book on real analysis? :upside_down:

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:42):

The standard proof for the right to left implication using the Lebesgue number lemma.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:42):

But of course if you assume compactness in this lemma then the proof becomes less convincing.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:43):

@Sebastien Gouezel, any thought on this topic?

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 14 2020 at 20:47):

If every sequence in S has a converging subsequence, your set is clearly closed and bounded, therefore compact :)

I agree that the classical proof goes through the Lebesgue number for sequentially compact spaces, but for me this is more of a historical curiosity (maths de classes prépa, say). I definitely used the Lebesgue number lemma for compact spaces in real maths, so the existing version is the right one for me, but probably not for teaching purposes.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:52):

Did you use it for compact spaces that are not first countable (hence may be not sequentially compact)?

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:54):

I'll probably put your proof in mathlib anyway. But the classical proof is nice to formalize.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 14 2020 at 20:55):

I mean it's nicely frustrating (involving discussing finite subsets).

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 14 2020 at 21:04):

No, always in metric spaces, of course.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 08:11):

Sebastien Gouezel said:

If every sequence in S has a converging subsequence, your set is clearly closed and bounded, therefore compact :)

I agree that the classical proof goes through the Lebesgue number for sequentially compact spaces, but for me this is more of a historical curiosity (maths de classes prépa, say). I definitely used the Lebesgue number lemma for compact spaces in real maths, so the existing version is the right one for me, but probably not for teaching purposes.

I should really ask for a formal proof each time someone claims something about math. I was so tired yesterday night that I believed Sébastien without thinking at all. This "proof" is of course a joke.

view this post on Zulip Kenny Lau (Apr 15 2020 at 08:15):

what's wrong with this proof?

view this post on Zulip Kenny Lau (Apr 15 2020 at 08:18):

the crucial step that I^n is compact follows easily from the fact that I is compact and product of compact spaces is compact

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 08:45):

"closed and bounded, therefore compact" is wrong (Sébastien did put a smiley after this, but I was misled by the following paragraph).

view this post on Zulip Kenny Lau (Apr 15 2020 at 08:47):

I thought S is a subset of R^n

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 09:21):

No, it's not.

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 15 2020 at 09:23):

In your question, S was indeed a subset of R^n, therefore the proof works. But of course it doesn't work in the generality you would like, hence the smiley.

view this post on Zulip David Wärn (Apr 15 2020 at 09:53):

I guess you can replace "closed and bounded" with "complete and totally bounded" and deduce compactness by "lion-hunting", but Lebesgue number lemma is probably easier

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 15 2020 at 09:54):

We already have that a complete totally bounded set is compact.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 09:54):

Totally bounded is needed anyway. But I don't see how to get completeness.

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 15 2020 at 09:55):

Do you already have that completeness is equivalent to the convergence of Cauchy sequences?

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 09:56):

I didn't do that, but maybe it's already there somewhere.

view this post on Zulip David Wärn (Apr 15 2020 at 09:56):

Isn't that the definition?

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 09:56):

No, not in this generality

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 09:57):

We are discussing uniform spaces having a countable basis of entourages here.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 09:57):

So it's not the definition, but it should hold.

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 15 2020 at 10:03):

Once you have this, start from a Cauchy sequence, say that it has a convergent subsequence, and therefore the whole sequence is converging (this last fact is already there, I know since I have used it for analytic maps)

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 10:04):

Yes, I understand your plan.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 10:04):

But I'm halfway through Lebesgue number so I think I'll finish that.

view this post on Zulip Sebastien Gouezel (Apr 15 2020 at 10:04):

Sure!

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 10:04):

I hope it could be useful for other things.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 10:05):

I even hope I'll get enough motivation to do some cleanup in uniform_space.basic.

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 10:06):

Cleaning up includes documenting of course.

view this post on Zulip Yury G. Kudryashov (Apr 15 2020 at 11:17):

We have "completeness from convergence of Cauchy sequences" near the end of cauchy.lean.

view this post on Zulip Yury G. Kudryashov (Apr 15 2020 at 11:19):

And Patrick even updated it to use is_countably_generated

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 11:23):

I did those updates in automatic mode, without really reading...

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 13:53):

Ok, I'm done with this Lebesgue number lemma. I continue to experiment with writing non-trivial proofs in a readable way. I'd like to know whether someone can read the next proof. It depends on stuff not in mathlib, but my goal is to have it readable anyway, even without tactic state, simply through the use of obtain and clear:

lemma lebesgue_number_lemma_seq [uniform_space β] {s : set β} {ι : Type*} {c : ι  set β}
  (hs : seq_compact s) (hc₁ :  i, is_open (c i)) (hc₂ : s   i, c i)
  (hU : is_countably_generated (𝓤 β)) :
   V  𝓤 β,  x  s,  i, ball_[V] x  c i :=
begin
  classical,
  obtain V, hV, Vsymm :
     V :   set (β × β), (𝓤 β).has_antimono_basis (λ _, true) V    n, swap ⁻¹' V n = V n,
      from uniform_space.has_seq_basis hU, clear hU,
  suffices :  n,  x  s,  i, ball_[V n] x  c i,
  { cases this with n hn,
    exact V n, hV.to_has_basis.mem_of_mem trivial, hn },
  by_contradiction H,
  obtain x, x_in, hx :  x :   β, ( n, x n  s)   n i, ¬ball_[V n] x n  c i,
  { push_neg at H,
    choose x hx using H,
    exact x, forall_and_distrib.mp hx }, clear H,
  obtain x₀, x₀_in, φ, φ_mono, hlim :  (x₀  s) (φ :   ), strict_mono φ  (x  φ  x₀),
    from hs x_in, clear hs,
  obtain i₀, x₀_in :  i₀, x₀  c i₀,
  { rcases hc₂ x₀_in with ⟨_, i₀, rfl, x₀_in_c,
    exact i₀, x₀_in_c }, clear hc₂,
  obtain n₀, hn₀ :  n₀, ball_[V n₀] x₀  c i₀,
  { have := is_open_iff_mem_nhds.mp (hc₁ i₀) _ x₀_in,
    rcases (nhds_basis_uniformity hV.to_has_basis).mem_iff.mp this with n₀, _, h,
    use n₀,
    rwa  ball_eq_of_symmetry (Vsymm n₀) at h }, clear hc₁,
  obtain W, W_in, hWW :  W  𝓤 β, W  W  V n₀,
    from comp_mem_uniformity_sets (hV.to_has_basis.mem_of_mem trivial),
  obtain N, x_φ_N_in, hVNW :  N, x (φ N)  ball_[W] x₀  V (φ N)  W,
  { obtain N₁, h₁ :  N₁,  n  N₁, x (φ n)  ball_[W] x₀,
      from (tendsto_at_top' (λ (b : ), (x  φ) b) (𝓝 x₀)).mp hlim _ (mem_nhds_left x₀ W_in),
    obtain N₂, h₂ :  N₂, V (φ N₂)  W,
    { rcases hV.to_has_basis.mem_iff.mp W_in with N, _, hN,
      use N,
      exact subset.trans (hV.decreasing trivial trivial $ nat.id_le_of_strict_mono φ_mono _) hN },
    have : φ N₂  φ (max N₁ N₂),
      from φ_mono.le_iff_le.mpr (le_max_right _ _),
    exact max N₁ N₂, h₁ _ (le_max_left _ _), subset.trans (hV.decreasing trivial trivial this) h₂ },
  suffices : ball_[V (φ N)] x (φ N)  c i₀,
    from hx (φ N) i₀ this,
  calc
    ball_[V (φ N)] x (φ N)  ball_[W] x (φ N) : preimage_mono hVNW
                       ...  ball_[V n₀] x₀   : ball_subset_of_comp_subset x_φ_N_in hWW
                       ...  c i₀             : hn₀,
end

view this post on Zulip Kevin Buzzard (Apr 15 2020 at 13:57):

If you want to make it readable, why not just add comments in between every line like I half-did here?

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 13:58):

My question is precisely: can those obtain serve as comments?

view this post on Zulip Patrick Massot (Apr 15 2020 at 13:59):

They give all the steps in the proof, and the clear commands flag the fact that an assumption has just being used.

view this post on Zulip Johan Commelin (Apr 15 2020 at 13:59):

I don't really know the maths, and I think I can follow what's going on quite well.

view this post on Zulip Kevin Buzzard (Apr 15 2020 at 14:00):

Oh I see! Yes this is an interesting style.

view this post on Zulip Kevin Buzzard (Apr 15 2020 at 14:01):

Yes I think this is very interesting. The obtain steps say precisely what I would be saying in my comments.

view this post on Zulip Kevin Buzzard (Apr 15 2020 at 14:02):

They also have the advantage that they name all the notation.

view this post on Zulip Reid Barton (Apr 15 2020 at 14:09):

I didn't find the clear commands particularly helpful, but where you've put them makes them easy to ignore.


Last updated: May 11 2021 at 16:22 UTC