# Zulip Chat Archive

## Stream: maths

### Topic: Normal submonoids

#### Mario Carneiro (Aug 10 2018 at 10:43):

Are these a thing? The natural definition of normal subgroup extends to the monoid case as `a + b \in S -> b + a \in S`

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 10 2018 at 10:43):

Do we need them anywhere?

#### Mario Carneiro (Aug 10 2018 at 10:43):

not particularly

#### Mario Carneiro (Aug 10 2018 at 10:45):

Do we need normal subgroups?

#### Mario Carneiro (Aug 10 2018 at 10:45):

I guess the answer is about the same

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 10 2018 at 10:46):

Well... I think the will be used quite a lot.

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 10 2018 at 10:46):

Isn't Kevin already using them?

#### Mario Carneiro (Aug 10 2018 at 10:47):

I'm working on porting the add_subgroup stuff now... I don't really get why we care about noncommutative additive groups

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 10 2018 at 10:49):

We don't care about those.

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 10 2018 at 10:50):

We just want the additive subgroups, so that we can have subrings.

#### Kenny Lau (Aug 10 2018 at 10:51):

subrings not

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 10 2018 at 10:51):

And this seemed like a very straightforward translation exercise, which I performed without thinking about whether some lines could be removed...

#### Kevin Buzzard (Aug 10 2018 at 12:30):

Normal subgroups are used all over the place in maths, they're exactly the kernels of morphisms in the category of groups. I thought a bit recently about why we would care about noncommutative additive groups, and the only half-decent answer I could come up with is that there is at least one example in maths where people use addition as a standard notation and it's not commutative, namely addition of ordinals (not that anyone outside of logic ever uses ordinals anyway). These do not form a group though. In number theory there is an implicit assumption that addition is commutative.

I am only using normal subgroups in the additive case and only in the situation where addition is commutative, so they're the same as subgroups. My only use case was that I need some lemmas about quotient rings, and I thought that the "correct" way to prove that a map R -> S whose kernel contains I induced a map R/I -> S would be to first construct the map using some universal property of quotient abelian groups and then to show it's a ring homomorphism. But I don't know whether I'm fussing over nothing and should just prove it directly.

Didn't Chris make a quotient group PR recently? I was going to make one and then Chris told me he'd made one so I shouldn't PR because of potential conflicts.

https://github.com/leanprover/mathlib/pull/212

#### Mario Carneiro (Aug 10 2018 at 12:32):

oops

#### Andreas Swerdlow (Aug 10 2018 at 19:42):

I did some basic subring and subfield stuff here https://github.com/ImperialCollegeLondon/xena-UROP-2018/blob/master/src/inner_product_spaces/subrings_subfields.lean. Is this useful at all, or should it be linked to existing stuff in mathlib?

#### Reid Barton (Aug 10 2018 at 22:08):

Normal subgroups are used all over the place in maths, they're exactly the kernels of morphisms in the category of groups.

And groups are special because the equivalence relation induced by a surjection ($x \sim y$ if $f(x) = f(y)$) is determined by the equivalence class of 0, i.e., the kernel. For general monoids, knowing the kernel of a map doesn't tell you about the behavior of the map away from 0 (consider the quotient of `nat`

which identifies all the numbers greater than or equal to 3).

So, I don't think normal submonoids are of much interest.

#### Scott Morrison (Aug 10 2018 at 23:27):

@Andreas Swerdlow, looks useful to me. How about you PR it?

#### Scott Morrison (Aug 10 2018 at 23:27):

It might be worth doing a little renaming to get the functions as close as possible to following the pattern in `mathlib/group_theory/subgroup.lean`

.

#### Scott Morrison (Aug 10 2018 at 23:30):

I'm not entirely certainly where to put what you've written. My suggestion would be to be ambitious, and split it into two parts, putting them in `ring_theory/subring.lean`

and `field_theory/subfield.lean`

, parallel to the group situation: eventually we're going to need a fair bit of other stuff in both those directories. (Although `field_theory`

sounds very wrong...)

#### Scott Morrison (Aug 10 2018 at 23:32):

Probably it's best to create a new branch at <https://github.com/leanprover-community/mathlib>, so others can look at it first (announce here you want help?) and then once it's been tweaked a bit we can PR it to the official mathlib.

#### Scott Morrison (Aug 10 2018 at 23:34):

(If you don't have commit access at leanprover-community, either ask here for it, or just do the work in your own fork of mathlib and send a PR to leanprover-community, and announce here and somewhere will merge it to a branch.)

#### Johan Commelin (Aug 11 2018 at 04:41):

I did some basic subring and subfield stuff here https://github.com/ImperialCollegeLondon/xena-UROP-2018/blob/master/src/inner_product_spaces/subrings_subfields.lean. Is this useful at all, or should it be linked to existing stuff in mathlib?

Hi @Andreas Swerdlow Additive subgroups have just been put into mathlib: https://github.com/leanprover/mathlib/blob/0f42b279865753eb3c79f3504783c7dbd81dfc7e/group_theory/subgroup.lean#L25. I think that it is useful if Lean knows that every subring is also an additive subgroup. Some time ago I wrote https://github.com/kbuzzard/lean-perfectoid-spaces/blob/master/src/for_mathlib/subring.lean#L13, but there is nothing about fields in that file. I think a merge of your and my approach would be best.

#### Andreas Swerdlow (Aug 13 2018 at 10:46):

@Scott Morrison @Johan Commelin thanks for the help. I've rewritten the subfield part, so that it builds off of what Johan wrote for subrings, and created a fork of leanprover-community/mathlib with both Johan's subring file in ring_theory/subring.lean and the subfield stuff in field_theory/subfield.lean. The fork is here: https://github.com/amswerdlow/mathlib. Any suggestions are welcome before I PR

Last updated: May 09 2021 at 10:11 UTC