Zulip Chat Archive
Stream: maths
Topic: Ordinals as a ω-complete partial order
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 02:59):
PR #15578 made me realize we might have some duplicated API between the theory of fixed points of ordinal functions, and the fixed points in a ω-complete partial order.
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:01):
For instance, docs#OmegaCompletePartialOrder.fixedPoints.ωSup_iterate_mem_fixedPoint has a version on ordinals as docs#Ordinal.nfp. It's not exactly the same since nfp
works on an arbitrary function, but its API does show that it is a fixed point when the argument is a normal function (which in particular is a order hom with x ≤ f x
.
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:12):
I'm not sure to what degree we can restate results in terms of ω-CPOs. For instance, I wouldn't expect docs#Ordinal.nfpFamily, which takes the next fixed point of any small family of functions, to generalize. That being said, there's probably better ways to state this. A TODO remark states that this just generalizes the statement that an intersection of club sets is a club set (which @Nir Paz has been working on getting onto Mathlib).
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:13):
Something else I'm not expecting to generalize: the derivative docs#Ordinal.deriv of a normal function. The fact that you can enumerate an unbounded set of the ordinals by themselves is something very specific to them, as it requires an inaccessible cardinality.
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:13):
(It'd be nice to redefine deriv
as the docs#Ordinal.enumOrd of the fixed points. The enumOrd
API is currently a bit ugly, but I'm working on cleaning it up.)
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:27):
So, what's the course of action? I'm thinking Ordinal.nfp
can be turned into something like IsNormal.iterateChain
, but I'm not sure what to do with Ordinal.nfpFamily
or everything else.
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:28):
Important context: my original reason for adding these functions was to define the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_function. This is an ordinal-indexed sequence where each function enumerates the common fixed points of all the previous ones.
Violeta Hernández (Sep 15 2024 at 03:29):
So, if we can otherwise state that the fixed points of a small family of normal functions are unbounded, we might be able to do without nfpFamily
.
Last updated: May 02 2025 at 03:31 UTC