Zulip Chat Archive
Stream: maths
Topic: Showing S : Λ ⟶ ∑₂ is topological conjugacy with μ > 4
Attila Vajda (Oct 18 2025 at 10:20):
I would like to learn to write this proof in Lean4,
to learn more about these concepts.
I got this exercise as part of a dynamical systems introductory course.
Any tips would help with what to learn to construct this proof.
Λ is Cantor set under logistic function f : μx(1-x), μ > 4
∑₂ is bi-infinite sequences with shift function S : ∑₂ ⟶ ∑₂
Conjugacy condition:
h ∘ f = S ∘ h
(I think this is the goal maybe)
Λ ───f───> Λ
| |
h| |h
▼ ▼
Σ₂ ───S───> Σ₂
Kevin Buzzard (Oct 18 2025 at 14:48):
Can you give much more precise definitions of and ? There are many meanings to "Cantor set", your function depends on an unspecified parameter and is unlikely to take a random Cantor set to itself, and you don't say the values that your sequences are taking.
Attila Vajda (Oct 19 2025 at 14:12):
Kevin Buzzard said:
Can you give much more precise definitions of and ? There are many meanings to "Cantor set", your function depends on an unspecified parameter and is unlikely to take a random Cantor set to itself, and you don't say the values that your sequences are taking.
Thank you for your message Kevin and yes! Here is more about and .
It seems my textbook by Robert Devaney discusses all the components that make up a proof. I'm not yet sure why for points escape the interval.
Λ
For with , the invariant Cantor set is:
This is the set of points whose orbits never escape .
∑₂
The space of infinite sequences of 0s and 1s is called the sequence space on the two symbols 0 and 1:
σ
The shift map is
defined by
S : Λ ⟶ ∑₂
"Thus, the itinerary of is an infinite sequence of 0’s and 1’s. That is, is a point in the sequence space . We think of as a map from to . This map has several interesting properties." [Devaney]
conjugacy
I think the proof is to show the following diagram commutes:
"Topologically conjugate mappings are completely equivalent in terms of their dynamics." [Devaney]
Reference: An Introduction to Chaotic Dynamical Systems, Robert Devaney
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Aaron Liu (Oct 19 2025 at 14:28):
Is strictly monotone if I put the lexographic order on
Aaron Liu (Oct 19 2025 at 14:30):
Attila Vajda said:
It seems my textbook by Robert Devaney discusses all the components that make up a proof. I'm not yet sure why for points escape the interval.
It's because iff
Aaron Liu (Oct 19 2025 at 14:35):
I think I am understanding what you want to do now but this function is still pretty mysterious, can you give either a definition or some characteristic property that uniquely determines it?
Attila Vajda (Oct 20 2025 at 12:09):
Aaron Liu said:
I think I am understanding what you want to do now but this function is still pretty mysterious, can you give either a definition or some characteristic property that uniquely determines it?
Oh I left the definition of S out, I think:
The itinerary of is a sequence , where
if , if .
And the proof is to show S is a homeomorphism, which sends Λ to ∑₂
Λ ───f───> Λ
| |
S| |S
▼ ▼
Σ₂ ───σ───> Σ₂
- Vertical arrows =
S(homeomorphism) - Commutativity =
S ∘ f = σ ∘ S
both holds → topological conjugacy
Sorry if these don't yet make sense, but I am learning even from trying to explain this description!
Aaron Liu (Oct 20 2025 at 12:11):
Oh, what's and ? Can you prove that out of the two possibilities and exactly one of these happens?
Attila Vajda (Oct 20 2025 at 14:27):
Aaron Liu said:
Oh, what's and ? Can you prove that out of the two possibilities and exactly one of these happens?
I think I is the unit interval [0,1], and I₀ and I₁ are the set of points of the domain of f which don't escape near the peak y > 1 for the zeroth iteration.
Maybe x is in either because I₀ and I₁ are disjoint.
Aaron Liu (Oct 20 2025 at 14:36):
Attila Vajda said:
Aaron Liu said:
Oh, what's and ? Can you prove that out of the two possibilities and exactly one of these happens?
I think
Iis the unit interval [0,1], andI₀andI₁are the set of points of the domain offwhich don't escape near the peaky > 1for the zeroth iteration.Maybe
xis in either becauseI₀andI₁are disjoint.
Sorry, I still don't get it. What do you mean by "near"?
Attila Vajda (Oct 20 2025 at 19:58):
Aaron Liu said:
Attila Vajda said:
Aaron Liu said:
Oh, what's and ? Can you prove that out of the two possibilities and exactly one of these happens?
I think
Iis the unit interval [0,1], andI₀andI₁are the set of points of the domain offwhich don't escape near the peaky > 1for the zeroth iteration.Maybe
xis in either becauseI₀andI₁are disjoint.Sorry, I still don't get it. What do you mean by "near"?
See the peak of this curve, apparently those points above the line don't return to [0,1]. I don't yet know what happens to those points, maybe "unstructured chaos" or "lost to infinity". They escape and tend to minus infinity.
Bildschirmfoto 2025-10-20 um 20.46.06.png
Bildschirmfoto 2025-10-20 um 21.09.47.png
I learnt perhaps σ(S(x)) = S(f(x)), because
σ(S(x)):
- σ starts the sequence S(x) makes from the second digit
S(f(x)) :
- f(x) is the first iteration, so it's sequence via S doesn't have the first digit of S(x)
S(x) = (b₀, b₁, b₂, …) reads the orbit starting at x (0th iteration).
S(f(x)) = (b₁, b₂, …) reads the orbit starting at the 1st iteration.
σ(S(x))=(b1,b2,…) shifts S(x) one
Here is a sketch in Lean4:
coinductive Σ₂
| cons : Fin 2 → Σ₂ → Σ₂
variable (μ : ℝ) (hμ : μ > 4)
def f (x : ℝ) := μ * x * (1-x)
def Λ := {x : ℝ | ∀ n, (f^[n] x) ∈ [0,1]} -- invariant set under μ>4
def S (x : ℝ) : Σ₂ :=
coinductive.cons (if x < 0.5 then 0 else 1) (S (f μ x))
def σ (s : Σ₂) : Σ₂ :=
match s with
| Σ₂.cons _ tail => tail
theorem conjugacy {x : ℝ} (xΛ : x ∈ Λ) :
σ (S x) = S (f μ x) := by rfl
Also this seems like a nice idea:
Λ seems to have binary tree structure, as well as ∑₂, so would it be maybe meaningful to show
inductive 木 -- "tree"
| 葉 : 木 -- leaf
| 節 : 木 → 木 → 木 -- node (branch)
Λ : 木 and ∑₂ : 木 → Λ ≅ ∑₂
Aaron Liu (Oct 20 2025 at 20:01):
ok after reading the thing I get it now
Aaron Liu (Oct 20 2025 at 20:20):
I don't know what kind of stuff you are trying to prove but here's a template that actually compiles
import Mathlib
variable (μ : ℝ)
def f (x : ℝ) : ℝ := μ * x * (1 - x)
theorem continuous_f : Continuous (f μ) := by
sorry
def Λ : Set ℝ := { x | ∀ n, 0 ≤ (f μ)^[n] x }
theorem mapsto_f_Λ : Set.MapsTo (f μ) (Λ μ) (Λ μ) := by
sorry
def rf : Λ μ → Λ μ := (mapsto_f_Λ μ).restrict
theorem Λ_subset_Icc (hμ : 0 < μ) : Λ μ ⊆ Set.Icc 0 1 := by
sorry
theorem continuous_rf : Continuous (rf μ) := by
sorry
abbrev BoolSeq : Type := Nat → Bool
def σ (x : BoolSeq) : BoolSeq := fun n => x (n + 1)
theorem continuous_σ : Continuous σ := by
sorry
theorem surjective_σ : Function.Surjective σ := by
sorry
noncomputable
def S (x : Λ μ) : BoolSeq := fun n => decide (2⁻¹ < ((rf μ)^[n] x).1)
theorem bijective_S (hμ : 4 < μ) : Function.Bijective (S μ) := by
sorry
theorem continuous_S (hμ : 4 < μ) : Continuous (S μ) := by
sorry
theorem isHomeomorph_S (hμ : 4 < μ) : IsHomeomorph (S μ) := by
sorry
theorem semiconj_S_rf_σ (hμ : 4 < μ) : Function.Semiconj (S μ) (rf μ) σ := by
sorry
theorem surjective_rf (hμ : 4 ≤ μ) : Function.Surjective (rf μ) := by
sorry
Attila Vajda (Oct 21 2025 at 05:03):
Thank you for this template @Aaron Liu :dolphin:
Last updated: Dec 20 2025 at 21:32 UTC