Zulip Chat Archive

Stream: maths

Topic: equivalence between ℓp and Lp


Jireh Loreaux (Aug 10 2022 at 21:18):

I was starting to implement the equivalence between lp and measure_theory.Lp (in the case of counting measure on full power set of the domain for functions α → E) in part as a way to teach myself the measure theory portion of the library. However, I immediately ran into issues and I need some questions answered:

  1. Why is docs#measure_theory.snorm zero if p = 0? I would have expected something like μ (function.support f). This definition prohibits an equivalence in this case.
  2. Will I need to restrict the domain α to be countable?

My concern in (2) is in the p = ∞ case. In particular, if the domain α was something like set.Icc (0 : ℝ) 1 and f : α → ℝ was given by f x = ↑x, then we would have mem_ℓp f ∞ but I don't think we would have measure_theory.mem_𝓛p f ∞, with the latter failing only because f is not a.e. strongly measurable (at least, I think it's not, but I would be content to be shown otherwise).

In case p < ∞, one should be able to show that the support of f is countable, and then one can show f is a pointwise limit of simple functions and hence is strongly measurable.

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:24):

I would say the natural equivalence should be with Lp for the counting mesure on the measurable space (X,)(X, \top) so measurability shouldn't be an issue

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:25):

I mean, somehow this is the "natural" sigma algebra for the counting measure, right ?

Jireh Loreaux (Aug 10 2022 at 21:26):

Yes, I agree, but I think the f I described above is not docs#measure_theory.ae_strongly_measurable, which is a requirement for measure_theory.mem_𝓛p

Jireh Loreaux (Aug 10 2022 at 21:30):

I guess another way to ask this is: if α is equipped with ⊤ : measurable_space α, does that imply every function is strongly measurable?

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:31):

Yes. For your example, docs#continuous.strongly_measurable should mean that it is trongly measurable right ? But that doesn't help with the general case

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:31):

Oh wait maybe it does

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:31):

Just put the discrete topology on the domain

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:32):

But that shouldn't be the right way of doing it anyway

Jireh Loreaux (Aug 10 2022 at 21:43):

ummm... no? The discrete topology on an uncountable set is not a second countable topology.

Jireh Loreaux (Aug 10 2022 at 21:44):

Again, if that f I described above is strongly measurable, then what is the sequence of simple functions which converges to it pointwise?

Anatole Dedecker (Aug 10 2022 at 21:56):

Yes but you need only docs#second_countable_topology_either, so having a second countable codomain works right? This won't work in general though. Sorry if I'm saying stupid things, I should let someone who knows this better than me answer

Jireh Loreaux (Aug 10 2022 at 22:10):

Yeah, okay, but that's easy to break too (as you mentioned), just map instead into lp (lambda (_ : real), real) top

Rémy Degenne (Aug 11 2022 at 07:43):

The choice of snorm being uniformly 0 for p=0 is a bit of a junk value, but it makes many lemmas true for all p instead of 0 < p. Apart from that, it makes Lp E 0 μ equal to the space of ae_strongly_measurable functions (equivalence classes of), which corresponds to the usual L0 notation. That last point is not important: we don't use Lp E 0 μ for that space, we use measure_theory.ae_eq_fun.

I tried replacing the definition of snorm at 0 by μ (function.support f) and it looks like most lemmas used to compare snorm at different exponents now require an additional 0 < p. Also various other results now break at 0, like snorm (c • f) p μ = (∥c∥₊ : ℝ≥0∞) * snorm f p μ, or (∀ᵐ x ∂μ, ∥f x∥ ≤ c * ∥g x∥) → ∥f∥ ≤ c * ∥g∥.

In summary, Lp 0 was not considered a useful object, hence snorm at 0 was defined to be the junk value that makes as many lemmas true at 0 as possible. If you have a meaningful value for it that turns Lp E 0 μ into something useful, the slight inconvenience of a few 0 < p hypotheses could be worth it. Otherwise, I guess you can define your equivalence for 0 < p?


Last updated: Dec 20 2023 at 11:08 UTC