Zulip Chat Archive

Stream: FLT

Topic: microproject: restricted products


Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 15:18):

After the sterling work of @Salvatore Mercuri , @Madison Crim and @Matthew Jasper we are now much of the way towards a proof that LKAK=ALL\otimes_K\mathbb{A}_K=\mathbb{A}_L both algebraically and topologically. There is one mathematically tricky step left, which is LKKv=wvLwL\otimes_KK_v=\prod_{w|v}L_w, which Salvatore has recently PRed in the infinite case but which we still need in the finite case. The blueprint has details of a proof which I propose to formalize https://imperialcollegelondon.github.io/FLT/blueprint/Adele_miniproject.html#IsDedekindDomain.HeightOneSpectrum.adicCompletionComapAlgEquiv but I was slightly unhappy with the precision and I tinkered with it in FLT#399, which should hopefully be merged soon.

I think that after the adele refactor is merged, then modulo LKKv=wLwL\otimes_KK_v=\prod_wL_w what we will need to finish the job is some more API for docs#RestrictedProduct . Let me go through what I think we need to finish the job.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 15:24):

First we need a variant of some work of Maddy. When adeles were a subset of ProdAdicCompletions we needed some API for ProdAdicCompletions and Maddy proved that the construction commuted with LK()L\otimes_K(*) if L/KL/K is a finite extension of fields. Now we seem to need the analogous result for restricted products (here everything is a commutative ring):

1) Say KiK_i are a bunch of AA-algebras, and CiC_i are sub-AA-algebras, Let [Ki;Ci]\prod'[K_i;C_i] denote the restricted product of the KiK_i wrt the CiC_i. If BB is an AA-algebra which is finite as an AA-module, then I claim BA[Ki;Ci]=[BAKi;BACi].B\otimes_A\prod'[K_i;C_i]=\prod'[B\otimes_AK_i;B\otimes_AC_i].

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 15:26):

I think this can be broken down into two claims.
1a) Tensor products with finite modules commutes with arbitrary products (e.g. BAiCi=i(BCi)B\otimes_A\prod_i C_i=\prod_i (B\otimes C_i); Maddy you must have essentially done this?)
1b) Some form of "tensor products commute with filtered colimits" (because the restricted tensor product is just a filtered colimit of things defined in 1a).

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 15:39):

Then we need some way of writing down maps between restricted products. I've started on this in the file FLT/Mathlib/Topology/Algebra/RestrictedProduct.lean in FLT#399. The point is that the restricted products might be over different types (for example the finite places of KK and the finite places of LL) but we want to prove that things are isomorphic.

The kind of results which we need are:

2) Say MvM_v are types with subsets CvC_v indexed by vVv\in V and say LvL_v are types with subsets BvB_v indexed by wWw\in W. Say we have a map cc from WW to VV (corestriction, in the application) and for every ww we have a map Mf(w)LwM_{f(w)}\to L_w which takes Cf(w)C_{f(w)} into Bw.B_w.

Say that for each vVv\in V the set c1(v)c^{-1}(v) is finite, and the map from MvM_v to wc1(v)Lw\prod_{w\in c^{-1}(v)}L_w is an isomorphism, sending CvC_v to wc1(b)Bw.\prod_{w\in c^{-1}(b)}B_w.

Then there's an induced map v[Mv;Cv]w[Lw;Bw]\prod'_v[M_v;C_v]\to\prod'_w[L_w;B_w] and the claim is that it's a bijection.

In the application Mv=LKKv=BAKvM_v=L\otimes_KK_v=B\otimes_AK_v and Cv=BAAv.C_v=B\otimes_AA_v.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 15:39):

Plus variants when everything is a ring or a BB-algebra, when it's an isomorphism of rings.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 15:40):

Finally we need that if everything is topological, then the induced map is a homeomorphism.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 16:05):

We will also need the canonical isomorphism LKX=BAXL\otimes_KX=B\otimes_AX if XX is a KK-module.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 18 2025 at 16:15):

Javier Lopez had claimed LKKv=wLwL\otimes_KK_v=\prod_wL_w but unfortunately he now has a new job so has little time for mathlib; he's now unclaimed this issue, which is FLT#231 .

Matthew Jasper (Apr 18 2025 at 18:03):

I think that we also need the map BAAvBAKvLKKvB \otimes_A A_v \rightarrow B \otimes_A K_v \cong L \otimes_K K_v is injective (i.e., FLT#400 actually proves the thing that it claims to).

Rebecca Bellovin (Apr 19 2025 at 01:49):

I'm happy to take a stab at FLT#231

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 19 2025 at 08:34):

It might be the case that it's better breaking it up into smaller pieces first. Maybe it's too big to be an issue? But feel free! Make sure you look at the WIP PR by Javier first, there will be some useful stuff there

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 19 2025 at 23:18):

I feel like I'm missing a trick here. I want to split this argument into two or more pieces. Here's what it looks like to me.

The claim is the following. The set-up: say AA is a Dedekind domain, KK is its field of fractions, L/KL/K is a finite separable extension, BB is the integral closure of AA in LL. Then for vv a nonzero maximal ideal of AA the claim is that the canonical map KvwvLwK_v\to\prod_{w|v}L_w induces an isomorphism LKKv=wvLwL\otimes_KK_v=\prod_{w|v}L_w.

The proof firstly depends on a choice; choose αL\alpha\in L such that L=K(α)L=K(\alpha). Using this write LKKv=iILiL\otimes_KK_v=\prod_{i\in I}L_i where II is some auxiliary finite set that depends on α\alpha and the isomorphism is a map which also depends on α\alpha. Then say "oh well the LiL_i match up with the LvL_v so we're done"

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 19 2025 at 23:19):

I want to prove the first statement (about the LiL_i) as an independent lemma but I'm a bit confused about what the statement should say. Is there a statement which is independent of α\alpha and useful? For example one could prove LKKvL\otimes_KK_v is a finite sum of fields. But does one need more control over the index set in order to finish the job?

Matthew Jasper (Apr 20 2025 at 10:31):

The map {w:wv}spec(LKKv)\{w : w|v\} \rightarrow \mathrm{spec} (L \otimes_K K_v) given by the maps LKKvLwL \otimes_K K_v \rightarrow L_w is bijective. Then show LKvL \otimes K_v is a finite sum of fields?

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 20 2025 at 13:04):

I agree that the map is a bijection (although this might need "if the valuation vv on KK comes from a nonzero maximal ideal of AA then every nonarchimedean norm on LL which restricts to vv on KK must come from a nonzero maximal ideal of BB" and I'm not entirely clear on how hard this is). But I'm a bit less clear right now about how that gives "the obvious map LKKvwLwL\otimes_KK_v\to\oplus_wL_w is a bijection", as opposed to just "there is an isomorphism".

Matthew Jasper (Apr 20 2025 at 13:36):

So, letting ϕ:LKvwLw\phi : L \otimes K_v \rightarrow \prod_w L_w be the obvious map and πu:wLwLu\pi_u : \prod_w L_w \rightarrow L_u the projection, I was thinking kerϕ=wker(πwϕ)=mm=0\ker \phi = \bigcap_w \ker (\pi_w \circ \phi) = \bigcap_{\frak{m}} \frak{m} = 0 to show injectivity and a density approach (using the results from my last PR) to show surjectivity. Maybe CRT could be used instead though.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 20 2025 at 13:42):

Yes, it occurred to me also that maybe one just tries to prove directly that the obvious map ϕ\phi is an injection and a surjection. You've got very good at density arguments, perhaps your PR about the integral level extends easily to show that LL is dense in wLw\prod_w L_w?

Rebecca Bellovin (Apr 21 2025 at 04:46):

Can we just take the integral statement and invert πK\pi_K? But I guess showing that (OLOKv)[1/πK]LKv(\mathcal{O}_L\otimes \mathcal{O}_{K_v})[1/\pi_K]\cong L\otimes K_v could be tricky.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 21 2025 at 05:54):

The integral statement assumes the rational one to get injectivity

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 22 2025 at 14:59):

I think there are two approaches to this.

1) The approach in the blueprint. Here is a concrete statement which is certainly true but I'm unclear about how far we are from it.

We're in the usual AKLB set-up which I outlined above (K field of fractions of Ded domain A, L/K finite separable, B integral closure of A in L), with vv a nonzero maximal ideal of AA (i.e. A isn't a field!). Say MM is a field and an LKKvL\otimes_KK_v-algebra (e.g. M=LwM=L_w for some wvw|v). Say MM is finite-dimensional as a KvK_v-vector space. Then

(i) MM inherits a norm, extending the norm on KvK_v (@María Inés de Frutos Fernández do we have this in mathlib yet?)

(ii) The restriction of this norm to LL is equivalent to the ww-adic norm on LL, for some wv.w|v.

That is one way to make progress on this LKKvL\otimes_KK_v business. Here is a completely different approach, but I don't know how feasible it is: (1) prove that the map LKKvwvLwL\otimes_KK_v\to\prod_{w|v}L_w is surjective and KvK_v-linear using the ideas which @Matthew Jasper has recently formalized. Then (2) deduce it's an isomorphism by a dimension-count. For this we'll just need [Lw:Kv]=eifi[L_w:K_v]=e_if_i because we have ieifi=[L:K]\sum_i e_if_i=[L:K]. Here eie_i and fif_i are defined globally, so if one were to approach this via a local definition of ee and ff then one would have to relate the local ee and ff to the global one.

Matthew Jasper (Apr 22 2025 at 15:13):

#23333 is open for now

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 22 2025 at 16:11):

I'd better get reviewing!

María Inés de Frutos Fernández (Apr 22 2025 at 16:17):

Kevin Buzzard said:

(i) MM inherits a norm, extending the norm on KvK_v (@María Inés de Frutos Fernández do we have this in mathlib yet?)

It is not in Mathlib, but I have PR'd the whole proof: see #23178, #23184, #23251, #23252, #23254, #23266, #23301 and #23333.

Madison Crim (Apr 23 2025 at 13:11):

Kevin Buzzard said:

I think this can be broken down into two claims.
1a) Tensor products with finite modules commutes with arbitrary products (e.g. BAiCi=i(BCi)B\otimes_A\prod_i C_i=\prod_i (B\otimes C_i); Maddy you must have essentially done this?)
1b) Some form of "tensor products commute with filtered colimits" (because the restricted tensor product is just a filtered colimit of things defined in 1a).

This is proven in TensorPi.lean for a finite free module

Andrew Yang (Apr 23 2025 at 13:17):

Tensor products with finite modules commutes with arbitrary products

I think you need finitely presented.

Madison Crim (Apr 23 2025 at 13:25):

I haven't proved it for finitely presented, but yes this condition is more general and does give the desired result.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 23 2025 at 15:08):

I think free isn't good enough any more because we need it for OL/OK\mathcal{O}_L/\mathcal{O}_K which isn't always free :-/

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 23 2025 at 15:09):

The problem is that I don't really know how to make sense of LKAKL\otimes_K\mathbb{A}_K as a restricted product, because LKKvL\otimes_KK_v is fine but AvA_v isn't an KK-module.

Matthew Jasper (Apr 23 2025 at 23:14):

I might try that second approach for showing that the LKvL \otimes K_v map is an isomorphism.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 24 2025 at 03:20):

Note that both approaches will need that the map is a surjection

Matthew Jasper (Apr 24 2025 at 11:41):

Ok, I'll pr that separately then.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 24 2025 at 13:21):

@Madison Crim are you interested in beefing up your result about tensor products with finite modules commuting with arbitrary products from the finite free case to the general finitely presented case?

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 24 2025 at 13:36):

I think we must be a long way off the dimension counting argument right now. I should ask some of the global fields experts about it

Madison Crim (Apr 24 2025 at 13:55):

Absolutely, I actually started to think about this when I first took on my previous task.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 24 2025 at 15:03):

Andrew Yang said:

Tensor products with finite modules commutes with arbitrary products

I think you need finitely presented.

Do you have a reference for this?

Andrew Yang (Apr 24 2025 at 15:41):

One proof is "It is true for RnR^n, and tensor product is right exact, so look at RnRmM0R^n \to R^m \to M \to 0 and you're done". I think the converse is also true and there seems to be a proof here.

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 24 2025 at 15:55):

Aha so Maddy your work in the free case will be an essential ingredient!

Kevin Buzzard (Apr 25 2025 at 23:17):

I talked about this LKKv=wLwL\otimes_KK_v=\prod_wL_w issue at LLL and after some discussions I'm really coming around to the dimension count idea. The sorry in FLT#231 says that the canonical map LKKvwvLwL\otimes_KK_v\to\prod_{w|v}L_w is bijective. I think/hope Matthew's work will show that it's surjective. The dimension count argument to finish is that it's a KvK_v-linear surjection between two finite-dimensional KvK_v-vector spaces of the same dimension so if it's a surjection then it must be a bijection.

The reason I think that we might be closer to this than I'd realised, is that already in the repo we have that if wvw|v then the restriction of ww to KK is vv scaled by a factor of ee. After the adele refactor bump we have a new sorry saying that the same is true for the restriction of ww on LwL_w to KvK_v, but this is precisely the statement that "local e is global e". The statement that "local f is global f" should just follow from the claim that the residue field of KvK_v is A/PvA/P_v which sounds very doable (indeed I suspect that Matthew has introduced all the tools necessary, if it's not there already). So all that is missing is the statement that for a finite extension of nonarch local fields, the degree is efef, and this sounds very doable.

I'm still confused about the Ostrowski approach. I've had it in my head for years that to prove Ostrowski for number fields (every nonarch valuation comes from a max ideal of the ring of integers) it suffices to prove it for the rationals and then everything is obvious. I'm no longer sure that everything is obvious but maybe what's actually happened is that I've forgotten the proof of Ostrowski and it's got some key technique in it which makes it easy. But one reason I like the local approach is that the dimension being efef just sounds like an important and useful result in general, and I want to build up the theory of local fields in mathlib. Right now we are still bickering about the definition but I feel like things are converging.

Matthew Jasper (Apr 25 2025 at 23:32):

The dim = local efe f is the global result once you show that Ow/Ov\mathcal{O}_w/\mathcal{O}_v is a finite extension of DVRs (depending on what exactly you mean by "local ee")

Alex Kontorovich (Apr 25 2025 at 23:39):

In case it's useful, here's a quick exposition over Q\mathbb Q: https://youtu.be/bCziMZ8tkHQ?si=tnak6ZkTXB2tca7z&t=2297

Matthew Jasper (Apr 26 2025 at 01:05):

FLT#432 is the surjective "half" of this


Last updated: May 02 2025 at 03:31 UTC